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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Killlers and Strippers (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

TH10111
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If anyone is interested in my notes on the subjects of killing cards and the stripper deck: https://th10111.wordpress.com/2017/01/08......rippers/.

Firstly, it should be said that while my the work focuses on the game of Texas Hold'em, most of the ideas presented are not tried and tested at the card table. Additionally, I should also point out that I am not a performer or demonstrator, to which any of my videos will attest.

The work on killing cards is mostly mathematical, but there is also a spreadsheet which will tell you the card positions that are guaranteed to be killed for a given number of players and a cutting range.

Regarding strippers, I first look at some of the possible combinations of cuts and then the ideas of single sets, multiple sets, common sets and subsets. Then I suggest some of the qualities that one may wish look for when selecting target cards and also suggest a few possible card combinations.

TH
Artie Fufkin
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I admire the depth with which you examine those card scenarios that interest you.

Although I've never understood the posting of playing card videos showing anything less than stellar card handling (it tends to diminish your other efforts IMO), you obviously have insight into some aspects of cheating with playing cards, and you have committed a serious amount of time and effort to writing your book.

I've downloaded your book and will definitely enjoy reading it in its entirety. Thanks.
AMcD
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I haven't read the book so far, therefore I won't comment. But if you pull out cards like that in a game, I hope, I really hope, that you have a good life insurance.
Artie Fufkin
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I think he covered that Arnold - he notes that "I am not a performer or demonstrator, to which any of my videos will attest".

I think, to be fair, he covered his poor chops with that disclaimer.

Although, as I noted in my post, I too fail to understand folks posting videos that that show poor card handling ... whatever the reason might be for posting them.
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OK. My apologies, I didn't mean to be harsh with Mr Hayes, at all.
tommy
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What do you mean by sets?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Cagliostro
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Okay, first of all I want to thank TH10111 for posting his theoretical work on this BB and providing a copy of his book free of charge. I downloaded the book and won't have a chance to read and it for a couple of days but it should prove interesting.

Secondly I don't think showing a video to explain a theoretical concept has to be performed skillfully or with consummate skill. There can sometimes be a lot of posturing and pomposity on BB's such as this, and if someone sincerely presents something which may be of benefit to a few open minded members, how he handles cards to explain what he is attempting to convey has absolutely no relevance in my opinion.

Thirdly, I have known a couple of very capable gamblers who have made much more money than most card handlers will ever make in gambling who did not handle cards up to any standard that would pass on this BB, or even close. I would back these guys financially in a card game of their choice in a heartbeat.

Finally, killing cards, with or without strippers can be very effective in many games. Usually it is used by people who play the game extremely well to begin with and they just use these techniques to give them an extra edge, sometimes a significant advantage. The nice thing is they can last forever because there are no "moves" being used and in many instances, detection would be almost impossible. Instead, they are using their brains and cleverness which in my opinion trumps manipulation and gaffs every time.

I may go further with this depending on what I read in the book presented and what the comments are, but poker is not the only game, or even the best game to get an edge with "killing cards."
MarcoLostSomething
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Thank You TH10111 for sharing. I'll read it with pleasure as soon as I've finished some projects I'm working at the moment.
I gave just a brief look, one thing I can say (and that has nothing to do with the content) is that you could create a less compact layout, so that it will be a more pleasant format. Just a personal stylistic opinion!
Do you use LaTeX as editing software? If you don't, I recommend to take a look at it, it's awesome (and free) for writing articles, expecially scientific ones!
Artie Fufkin
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Cag's note about video certainly applies in some situations.

However, in this case the demo on video really didn't expand on the book in any profound manner, and indeed wouldn't be missed if it wasn't there (IMO).
I don't see "posturing and pomposity" anywhere in comments related to poor card handling, especially when the author himself effectively warns folks that's what they're about to watch!

BTW, the first part of the book (as far as I've read) is excellent, some of the thinking is quite deep.
That Mr. Hayes is offering this work gratis to interested parties should be roundly celebrated, and the author offered many thanks.

He's obviously put a lot of work into this material.
chappy
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Indeed. Thank you Thomas for sharing your work.

I looking forward to reading through it.

Just a note, there is a funny typo on Page 2. I hope you'll leave it that way, but if you make a correction, perhaps it will make the earlier copies more valuable Smile Smile
TH10111
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Firstly, thank you all for the positive comments, they are very encouraging.


Artie:
I chose to include videos for two main reasons; firstly because text alone can be a little dry and seeing something that goes along with what you're reading can make it easier to understand. Secondly, with some techniques I simply want to prove that they are not just theoretical, but that they have the potential to be worked on and improved up to the point that they may be passable in at least the most amateur game out there.
However, I agree that the first video, the P-Stripper Demonstration, adds virtually nothing to the book. Though I think the OP-Strippers Demonstration shows that subsets can be constructed and pulled, which is something I did want to display.


Tommy:
In this context I am referring to sets as the groups of cards that may be stripped. For example, if your deck is set up such that you can strip kings by holding the deck one way and strip queens by holding it in another way, then I would refer to the kings as one set and the queens as a another set.


Cagliostro:
I am a fan of killing cards for the very reason you state; that it requires no moves. But I do also agree that it can be much more effective games other than poker.


Marco:
Thanks for the suggestion, I am aware of LaTeX, but it isn't something I have ever taken the time to really learn how to use, though by all accounts it is worth the effort. I based the format of the manuscript on an existing template from a book printing company, which is probably why it feels a little compact.


TH
TH10111
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Chappy:
Thank you for pointing that out. I am intrigued to go back and find it now Smile
Bobbycash
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Chappy,
I would love to see someone try that "move" at a card table Smile
tommy
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Thank you kindly.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Jan 10, 2017, Artie Fufkin wrote:

I don't see "posturing and pomposity" anywhere in comments related to poor card handling…


OMG... I would never suggest or imply in even my wildest and most bizarre imaginings that there would ever be any posturing or pomposity on this forum. What I said specifically was, "There can sometimes be a lot of pomposity and posturing on BBs such as this," but certainly not specifically on this forum.

So I offer my humblest apologies if my statement gave the slightest inference that pomposity or posturing could ever be associated with this BB, and more specifically, certainly not on this thread.
Smile
Artie Fufkin
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Ahhhhh, caught you displaying some "posturing" with that last post Cag Smile

I'm kidding, but to be fair, I said I didn't see any posturing or pomposity anywhere in the comments in this thread related to poor card handling.

I didn't (and wouldn't) say there was never any posturing or pomposity in the Gambling Spot, as that would in itself be posturing and pomposity (and also patently untrue).
Cagliostro
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Although I have not given Killers and Strippers a detailed reading as of yet, although I will, I have perused it initially and have to say that it is excellent in my opinion and while quite theoretical gives some very good ideas as to the possibilities of using these type principles, which are called "location" by gamblers and have been used in various form for years. There is even a calculator to play with various sets of cards removed from play.

Although this concept is described for Texas Hold'em in the book, it can be utilized in many games, including casino card games and in some cases be applied more effectively and simply than in Hold’em.

One of the things I liked was the author was aware and addressed the difficulty in locating the desired cards to be used in Hold'em, something I have mentioned from time to time and which is completely avoided by those demonstrating "gambling" moves and ploys. Further, the concept of not having to nullify the cut using standard techniques is also addressed and something that can be and is effectively employed under fire.

In order to control the cards needed for the different ploys described in this book, strippers are used: convex, concave and negative. Use of strippers are not the only ways to use these techniques nor necessarily the best in many cases, but add to the discussion.

I am not going to make many comments because except for a very few people, interest is lacking on this thread and there is almost no discussion of these concepts on this BB. That actually is good for those who have a need or desire to use similar techniques under fire. It also is understandable because most members on a public BB such as this are not really advantage players or card hustlers and something of this nature is not as much fun or as exciting as watching or discussing how Russian criminals cheat in a prison environment.

Suffice it to say, for the very, very few, similar methods in less complex and theoretical form than described in this book have been and are currently being used in poker, both public and private, casino table games with cards as well as other money card games, and are about as deceptive and effective as one can imagine for getting the money. Further they are much more practical than many of the standard moves and methods that are bandied around and demonstrated on YouTube and BBs such as this because these old ploys are too well known.

However, I would suggest that for those who have a need or desire to go beyond the standard and common gambling ploys, a close reading of this theoretical work would be a benefit as these ideas and concepts can be modified and made more practical and usable for the serious minded. Of course, the second and bottom deal methods described are more for discussion than for practical application. You really don't need any standard moves to effectively use these concepts.

This book is a great starting place to turn on the light in the grey matter between one's ears for the very few.
slim23
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Thank you very much for sharing your book TH10111.

This is very nice. I like the way you took the time to classify everything relating to your subject. I will definitely read again and take the time too look at this.

Slim
steve ehlers
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Thanks for sharing the book.

Steve
Expertmagician
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WOW TH10111, I just downloaded your information....amazing thought process.
Now I have to sit down, read and take the time to comprehend the theory !

I love it ! At first glance, it appears that you have great thinking !

Thank you! Maybe we can expand on the concepts to help you !
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TH10111
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Thanks guys!

Expertmagician, I would be happy to get involved in some constructive conversations to further develop the ideas Smile

TH
Cagliostro
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I thought it might be interesting to a few to read about a real time, done under fire example, of killing cards. I know most want to see some fancy move or read some exciting story, but perhaps a few might be interested in reading about how it has been done and then figure it out from there.

First of all, I enjoyed Killing Cards and from a theoretical perspective it offered some good information. It is important to note that the concept of killing cards is really a subset of location play. There are other things that can be done with location play that do not involve killing cards in the way described and can be as strong or even stronger, in fact considerably stronger. That being said, let's get back to the book itself.

Killing Cards concentrated the analysis on poker as this is probably the most familiar game to most who read the book. While the analysis was good, it was highly theoretical and therefore has to be modified somewhat for use in the real world. Consider that there are many gambling card games other than poker that are played for big money, in some cases much bigger than poker.

Winning at poker is usually a slow, drawn out process and in most casinos the poker pit is off to the side, away from the main pit games and of somewhat lesser importance to the casino's bottom line. It is not considered a "main" casino game and its popularity is in part derived because of continual TV coverage. Contrast this with say Blackjack, Craps or Baccarat where there can be a decision every 10-15 seconds or so and which can have betting limits of $1,000, $5,000, $10,000 or more for select players depending upon the casino policy.

Let me start by saying that amateur games, which range from somewhat structured formats on down to anything goes, is the arena where you would most likely find the standard, somewhat overexposed card moves being used (stacking, hops, seconds, bottoms, etc.), with various levels of proficiency and success. Knowledge about these moves is almost commonplace.

In the more professional plays where the bigger money is usually made, one very important element is to fool the minds of one's opponents, not necessarily their eyes. This is where the critical elements of grift sense, con, cleverness, timing and other non-move factors come into play. If a move is involved in the play, it usually is the least important element and often is something simple.

With that being said, here is an example of an actual play, purposely going back in time, showing a real method, the principles and psychology involved and the reasons for this type approach which members can build on if they are so inclined.

Similar approaches are still being used, in different form and structure, some of which can be quite strong. However, the reason I use old plays for expose examples is because divulging current methods can adversely affect those who are using these techniques so that information is off the board as far as I am concerned. I don't have to "prove" anything by having an ego trip.

So here is an old example of how it was done in the past. The game in question was a single deck game of Blackjack with standard casino rules. A professional hustler was working with the dealer, the cards were dealt down to about the last 1/4 of the deck (13 cards) and the deck was fairly cut. The dealer was able to kill 6 low cards every time he shuffled, so they would not come up during the deal and in effect had been removed from play. (The six low cards killed were not be the same each and every deal through the deck).

The hustler automatically had an edge of 3 percent over the house right off the top of the deck while playing basic strategy and while his edge fluctuated above and below the 3 percent mark as the cards depleted, it remained pretty consistent on average but increased significantly at times during the deal. (For example, at about the 26 card level, if the deck composition remained the same as new deck distribution, with 6 low cards killed his edge would increase to 6%). He was also a decent card counter and varied his play of the hand slightly (hitting, standing, doubling down and splitting) depending on the count which increased his edge even more.

All the dealer had to do was to kill or control six cards during the shuffles and cuts, something that required only modest ability with the right technique and was done undetectibly against surveillance and the cameras. The cards were then cut "fairly" (no breaks, briefs, crimps, etc.) to bring this "slug" to the bottom 1/4 of the deck by the hustler/player. Those who are somewhat proficient with basic manipulation can figure this part out for themselves - it is pretty simple stuff.

Does anyone not think it is worthwhile to have a 3 percent edge (or more) over the house, consistently hand after hand with a win/lose decision every 15 seconds or so and virtually no chance of being caught or accused of cheating, something that will fool the floor men (assuming they are not in on the play), fool the cameras and even if suspected, there would be no valid proof? Keep in mind the hustler couldn't be suspected of card counting on this play because he was flat betting and playing a pretty straight forward game.

Here is how the play breaks down mathematically; on average the hustler gets 75 hands per hour in a heads up game which is quite reasonable. Also let's assume he is betting $1,000 a hand and let's be conservative and keep the edge at $3%. So, 75 hands per hour x $1,000 per hand = $75,000 worth of action. $75,000 x 3% means the player will "earn" $2,250 per hour.

A normal stay at a hotel casino is about three days. If the player puts in 20 hours of play over a three day period which is not hard to do, he will earn about $45,000 during that time period. If he is considered a whale, has a credit line enabling him to play $5,000 per hand, he will earn five times the amount shown above which is $225,000.00. The beauty of this is he can keep coming back time after time, say every 3 to 6 months or so and have his entire stay comped each time by the casino, receive all types of perks and be considered a highly desirable premium player.

Contrast this with a sleight of hand "mover" approach. Does it seem better to work the way described above with virtually zero chance of getting "nailed" and where the hustler can win or actually "earn" large amounts of money over time, or instead have the dealer pull seconds, hop the cut, flash cards, run-up hands or any similar type move under close scrutiny and video surveillance, even though that type work can be a great deal stronger?

The answer would seem to be obvious to all but the most oblivious to "real" card table chicanery.

The first approach would just keep generating money for the hustler, and did so play after play, trip after trip and the second would get the hustler back roomed and perhaps beaten up and/or landed in jail.

Using strippers as explained in Killing Cards would make the play even stronger but the inside would have to be involved to get the cards in.

And...that is just one small example of how it has been "professionally" done in the real world, under fire; the setup, planning, thinking, psychology, cleverness and lack of sleight of hand in going for and "getting the money."

There are many other ways to apply similar concepts, some considerably stronger than this and not just in casino card games but also in Poker, Gin and other private games, but the bottom line is this: you not only want to fool people visually, but more importantly fool them mentally or psychologically.

I have known professional advantage players who use mostly their playing ability to win in private and casino games that regularly use similar techniques to increase their edge significantly and...their chance of getting "nailed" is virtually zero. The worst that could happen is they get "winning heat."

Funny thing though, the above would not even make for an interesting story or exciting demo performance. For that you would need a lot of fancy, razzmatazz manipulative moves like dealing Greek bottoms, thirds, fifths, centers, hops, one handed bottoms or whatever else visually and viscerally excites the mind of man.
tommy
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Thank's Cag.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Cagliostro
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You're welcome, tommy.
MarcoLostSomething
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Thank You Cag, an interesting post and story to read!
As a side note, you're overestimating the move-like posts, I think every gambling related post is informative for whoever is interested in the subject.

@TH: I'm reading it, I'll post you my comments when I have finished it.
For now I can say that I'd follow the Stripper Chapter better with the help of some more pictures (maybe because of the convention of N's in my mind as a certain type of work).
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Feb 17, 2017, MarcoLostSomething wrote:

Thank You Cag, an interesting post and story to read!
As a side note, you're overestimating the move-like posts, I think every gambling related post is informative for whoever is interested in the subject.


Okay...I agree. However, keep in mind my posts are geared more to modern day professional play rather than standard card manipulation techniques.
Expertmagician
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Interesting post...thanks Cagliostro !
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