The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » The Undetectible Zarrow Shuffle (19 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8 [Next]
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
15456 Posts

Profile of tommy
“The Zarrow shuffle is a valuable move for card magic, but I don't think it's a deceptive move.”

Orwell's 1984 doublethink!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Thomas Gilroy
View Profile
New user
28 Posts

Profile of Thomas Gilroy
Hi Tommy,

I don't see how there is any "doublethink" there at all.

I don't think the move itself is deceptive. I don't think that you could focus the attention of an observer on a Zarrow shuffle and reasonably expect that they would not notice what is happening. However, in the context of magic performance, with suitable misdirection, I think the move has merit. In that context, it is the presentation or patter that is deceptive, not the move.

I think the move can go unseen, but I don't think it is invisible. In this respect, I think it's similar to a classic pass. When attention is drawn to the move, I think the move is obvious. A move can have value to card magic and not be deceptive.
Cagliostro
View Profile
Inner circle
2170 Posts

Profile of Cagliostro
Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, Thomas Gilroy wrote:

...I don't think the move itself is deceptive. I don't think that you could focus the attention of an observer on a Zarrow shuffle and reasonably expect that they would not notice what is happening. However, in the context of magic performance, with suitable misdirection, I think the move has merit. In that context, it is the presentation or patter that is deceptive, not the move.


That is an excellent point. The same applies to card hustling. In many cases, it is more the con, grift sense and the timing that makes many gaffs and moves work, or at least work much better. Similar concepts here.

Quote:
I think the move can go unseen, but I don't think it is invisible. In this respect, I think it's similar to a classic pass. When attention is drawn to the move, I think the move is obvious. A move can have value to card magic and not be deceptive.


Once again the same applies to hustling with cards. I have seen a hustler with a mediocre bottom deal get the money over and over again. He had a great deal of experience and it was the timing of the move, lulling the people into complacency, moving at the right time and not doing anything fast or suspicious looking. If anyone was "gunning his hands" as he was dealing, he just would not make the move. Because of his friendly and pleasant personality it would be rare for him to get any real scrutiny while dealing. He was just one of the guys having a good time.

Like the classic pass as mentioned. If you look directly at the hands, you know something happened. But...if you look in the general direction but not at the hands, if smoothly done you will not see anything.

Many "movers" think that a move must be impeccable to succeed. Of course, one wants to have a move mastered as adroitly as possible, especially for video demos. But many moves cannot be performed in a completely undetectable manner because of their inherent "weaknesses." Many "movers" cannot conceive or really understand why a mediocre bottom deal in the right hands would work in a game better than their impeccable bottom deal. The reason is they just don't understand these additional elements - the timing, grift sense, con, shading involved, etc. that make it all work.

To put it another way, oftentimes it is "the tail that wags the dog" that is the key element so to speak, not the superb execution of the move.
cbharrelson
View Profile
Regular user
103 Posts

Profile of cbharrelson
I have a question if you ha a top stock of 15 cards dou you do a push through or do you do a top stock shuffle? If you do atop stock shuffle with several cards in the stock do you do an open shuffle and hope they don't notice the clump. Erdnase did not. Steve forte has the best zarrow besides Gary plants. Some of the moves in Steves are better than Gary's but it is very noticeable when he changes the shuffle if he did all his riffle shuffles in this manner it would be deceptive because he cold throw in a zarrow unnoticed.etdnase stressed uniformity of action.
cbharrelson
View Profile
Regular user
103 Posts

Profile of cbharrelson
Cag is absolutely correct about misdirection. He is spot on. Take bill Malone for example he uses the zarrow a lot but he always shuffles the same. And my friend Arnold can appreciate this I use drills for my false shuffle just like a 2nd deal. I do a a push through with a block transfer then strip the cards to the right and the do a zarrow then an honest shuffle then a top stock control. All shuffles same erdnase closed shuffle. Thousands and thousands of times in front of a mirror all shuffles look the same.
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
15456 Posts

Profile of tommy
When I tested the Z I didn’t use misdirection; it would have been a pointless exercise if I had.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
cbharrelson
View Profile
Regular user
103 Posts

Profile of cbharrelson
Here is a little more food for thought. Tommy why are poker dealers required to shuffle the same every time? When Steve forte shuffles and deals it is so smooth and professional I can't take my eyes off of the deck even when he is doing a demo of an honest shuffle. And to friend Arnold I do a good zarrow but I can't do a good video.
cbharrelson
View Profile
Regular user
103 Posts

Profile of cbharrelson
Arnold I also don't look as good as these fellows I would be embarrased.
AMcD
View Profile
Inner circle
stacking for food!
3095 Posts

Profile of AMcD
Too sad for my eyes, but I'm okay with it.

Thanks for answering. Appreciated.
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
15456 Posts

Profile of tommy
So you can spot the fake; fakes are always a little different than the rest.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
cbharrelson
View Profile
Regular user
103 Posts

Profile of cbharrelson
Tommy it is also to give greater confidence to their gambler customers. After all they tap them pretty hard money wise and they go to great lengths to make their customers feel secure. When I have played in casinos most players did not even pay attention to the shuffles o r the rake I have personally spotted some dealers cutting more than they should and other nefarious things. Collusion etc. a lot of dealers shuffle so fast if they did a fake it would pass.
cbharrelson
View Profile
Regular user
103 Posts

Profile of cbharrelson
Another principal of hustling get caught with marked cards hard evidence if so one believes you are doing a false shuffle where is the proof.
cbharrelson
View Profile
Regular user
103 Posts

Profile of cbharrelson
Gamblers are funny animals I have played square in a game and I got alittle lucky and I have had people say I must be doing something wrong
Cagliostro
View Profile
Inner circle
2170 Posts

Profile of Cagliostro
Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, cbharrelson wrote:

Another principal of hustling get caught with marked cards hard evidence if so one believes you are doing a false shuffle where is the proof.


The question then becomes who put the cards in play, who is playing them and are you the stranger in the game? The only thing marked cards in play prove is marked cards are in play.

Also, in professional games being unable to prove sleight of hand cheating is long gone. The cameras tell all. Just play them back over and over again, close up and in slow motion. Plenty of proof there.

Further, irate players really don't need much proof, especially if they have lost considerable money.
Cagliostro
View Profile
Inner circle
2170 Posts

Profile of Cagliostro
Since we have digressed into different false shuffles, here is something that I value highly. It is the Triumph Shuffle described by Dai Vernon in the original Stars of Magic Series.

Let me digress.

When I was a teenager I purchase the entire Stars of Magic series in its original, loose life format with very sharp photos by George Karger and printed on very high quality glossy paper.

All the tricks in that original series were excellent and just as good today as they were back then. One trick by Vernon was the original Triumph card trick using his brainchild, the Triumph Shuffle. Vernon said he invented the Triumph shuffle because most card men had a hard time mastering an undetectable and deceptive pull through shuffle and the Triumph Shuffle was designed to make the task simpler and easier to execute. The idea behind the shuffle was quite clever although like most developments, it was based upon a different move and adapted.

I took that original Triumph shuffle, worked with it in front of a three way mirror, designed different variations and made it very deceptive and effective. I actually modified it for use at the card table and made it virtually angle proof. I used it for block transfers, for partials, with riffle stacking and slug controls and complete full deck retention although full deck control was usually unnecessary and used rarely used at the card table. The big key was the correct and deceptive way to square up the cards and having only a slight "extension" prior to the pull. One of the big advantages was the cards did not move diagonally on the square up but pushed straight in. Secondly I developed ways of making the pull without the telltale collapse of the packets.

As usual, most magicians murdered the Triumph shuffle or abandoned it for the simpler BS shuffles like the Shank and Zarrow. However, I would rate a correctly performed Triumph Shuffle at the top of the list for false shuffles but it must be done deceptively and correctly. And yes, it works very well under fire against pretty sharp people and one can go into sequential shuffles without the "cuts" in between.

Most who read this will probably have their eyes glaze over and since I am not a magician or demonstrator don't perform on video to force feed or try to prove anything for free to those who have no real interest or are not willing to do the things necessary to achieve higher levels of mastery. Additionally, most that are dedicated and become really good at sleight of hand "moves" come up with their unique variations and techniques and just need a kernel of an idea to run with. They usually don't just take a stock move from a book or video and go with it.

However for the very few adepts or future adepts who may have discounted this shuffle, you might want to take a closer look - in many instances it is comparable and sometimes beats the pull through and strip out shuffles and makes the Zarrow and Shank shuffles in comparison look like something invented and used by Mickey Mouse in cartoon land.

I have hinted at a lot here, but...sorry...no free lunch.
CoffeeBeans
View Profile
New user
Germany
39 Posts

Profile of CoffeeBeans
Very interesting post, thanks Cag! I guess I'm gonna go back to working on the shuffle, as I too had abandoned it.
cbharrelson
View Profile
Regular user
103 Posts

Profile of cbharrelson
Cag you have hit on a good style shuffle I do that type shuffle too Richard turner does a good job with that type of shuffle it is his pill iout is better than most push through shuffles. I agree with everything you say even about the shank I find it easier to do a block transfer easier with this type of shuffle everything you say is true I think you are missing the boat on the zarrow.if you spent the time working with the zarrow with your skill you may change your mind
Claudio
View Profile
Inner circle
Europe
1280 Posts

Profile of Claudio
Quote:
On Mar 22, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:

One trick by Vernon was the original Triumph card trick using his brainchild, the Triumph Shuffle. Vernon said he invented the Triumph shuffle because most card men had a hard time mastering an undetectable and deceptive pull through shuffle and the Triumph Shuffle was designed to make the task simpler and easier to execute. The idea behind the shuffle was quite clever although like most developments, it was based upon a different move and adapted.


Do you mean Erdnase's I. To Retain the Top Stock blind shuffle?

I am asking because Darwin Ortiz in The Annotated Erdnase writes about it that "Vernon used the same squaring action and hand positions to effect a one-card top block transfer and disguise the strip-out condition of the deck in Triumph in Stars of Magic".
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
15456 Posts

Profile of tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Cagliostro
View Profile
Inner circle
2170 Posts

Profile of Cagliostro
Quote:
On Mar 22, 2017, cbharrelson wrote:

Cag...if you spent the time working with the zarrow with your skill you may change your mind


I did spend the time and have a Zarrow much better than most but the shuffle is too flawed to go beyond a certain point. Plus, the moves I used were designed for use at the card tables and not to do card tricks or demos with, so the standards are much, much different.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » The Undetectible Zarrow Shuffle (19 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2018 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.22 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL