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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
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On Mar 19, 2017, MarcoLostSomething wrote: Thanks for posting your shuffle on video. It is a decent but standard "magician" type Zarrow. Although the video lighting is somewhat dark and it is performed at a favorable angle which hides the shuffles deficiencies to a certain degree, it still has sufficient tells to the informed that it is a Zarrow. However, I agree it no doubt has many applications in doing card tricks, which is what it was initially designed for, i.e., a simple shuffle magicians could use when doing their tricks that was not as difficult to master as a push-through or strip-out shuffle. Quote:
Perhaps the mechanics are more apparent to those who "know" the move, but as previously stated I do believe that a well performed push through beats a well performed Zarrow in terms of blind false shuffle for table situations. No disagreement here. Quote:
I am ignorant about the terminology and I have to ask: what's a breakout shuffle? I might know it with a non-english term or not know it all. A breakout shuffle is similar to a Zarrow without the initial "setup" and without the cover/movement of the top cards on the square-up. If is faster, can be covered more easily and partials work very well. In my opinion it is far superior to the Zarrow but not as good as a professionally performed push-through or strip-out. However, in the right circumstances has certain advantages over both the push-through or strip-out shuffles. Gary Plant demonstrates an example of a breakout shuffle in his booklet on the Zarrow Shuffle. He calls it the "Oeinsk" Shuffle or something like that. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
One common claim is that the Z does not beat various angles but in a heads-up card game, there is only one. IF it looks good enough in a tipple mirror it ought to work for heads up games against suckers.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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cbharrelson Regular user 167 Posts |
Well I think it is very good to have a forum like this where card men can come and discuss different moves and the willingness to offer advice to up and coming card men. I enjoy it because I have learned I will never know everything. I learn new twists everyday I think you guys have a wealth of knowledge.
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Cbharrleson:
Glad to know some of us have been a little helpful but it is not free of charge. Please check you mailbox for the invoice. You can pay through PayPal. |
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MarcoLostSomething Regular user 144 Posts |
Thank you all.
I will try to learn a Zarrow for a professional shuffle, and I will pay more attention to the angles. Maybe the breakout shuffle is also known as a Shank shuffle? Or is it another thing? I'm curious about Gary Plants handling, as well, I will check it out in the future. |
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cbharrelson Regular user 167 Posts |
Cag my friend you are a gentleman and a scholar I will check my mailbox. You know cag I saw a video of Rene Levantd tthe one armed wonder magician do a one handed stripout shuffle but he also used what you would call a one handed breakout shuffle in a routine. He did it well. Also there are 27 cards run out in 10 handed holder a partial zarrow would work fine. You could even do a legit strip cut. More food for thought.
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
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On Mar 20, 2017, MarcoLostSomething wrote: In my opinion, this is a ridiculous magician variant of a breakout shuffle and quite terrible. Fanning the top cards of one half over the other half to conceal what is occurring. Ugh! Trying the Shank shuffle in a game would definitely get you "shanked." Like the Zarrow, it looks best when the deck is blindfolded with a large opaque cloth. |
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cbharrelson Regular user 167 Posts |
Well to be perfectly honest we are in the age of technology today way beyond this old fart and you need a crew not a zarrow.
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Thomas Gilroy New user Ireland 70 Posts |
I respect that the Zarrow shuffle is a valuable move for card magic, but I don't think it's a deceptive move.
When I first started learning sleight of hand, I watched a video performance of a Triumph effect by a well respected performer using the Zarrow (I don't want to name names). On my first viewing, having never seen a Triumph before, I spotted the Zarrow, though I didn't know what it was called. I was able to reverse engineer the effect in minutes. That Zarrow was not poorly executed. Instead, it may have been the Triumph presentation, which draws attention to the fake shuffle when the performer shuffles the face up cards into the face down cards (which has always struck me as a great weakness to the effect). Whatever the reason, I wasn't fooled. Since then, I don't think I've been fooled by a Zarrow once. Jason England has said in one of his live lectures (I think it's the At The Table lecture) that it's nearly impossible to fool anybody with a Zarrow if they understand the basic concept. I think he's right in this. Incidentally, I learned to do a Zarrow from Jason's Foundations series. I think as a full deck false shuffle, there are serious flaws inherent to the move. A single shuffle requires a slip cut or center cut, which are not natural actions. The two shuffle sequences eliminate this problem, but the viewer will has another chance to spot the block replacement. I think the move is at its most deceptive when used to retain control of a stack while adding a known number of cards, or when it's used to place a crimped card from the bottom of the deck above a stack from the top while losing a known number of cards. I don't feel that the move would be viable in a game situation, especially with the standard handling. The Zarrow is most deceptive with an open riffle and a covered square-up, while poker dealers typically use a closed riffle with an open square up. It's anathema to correct procedure. I think if an open riffle and a covered square up are acceptable, Steve Reynolds handling is probably as good as it gets. I'm sure if that had been the Zarrow used in that first Triumph I saw, it would have flown right by me unnoticed. Steve Forte apparently has an excellent Zarrow too, but to my knowledge I've only seen him perform it at about 2:25 in the following video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zx90tBX21g I was able to recognise the Zarrow here also, though it's true that the shuffle is being performed in a section of the video called "False Shuffle," announcing what is about to happen. Still, it's shot from over his shoulder, which is probably the best possible angle for the move. To my knowledge, I've never seen Steve Forte perform a Zarrow from any other angle. If I have, then he has fooled me, and I think that speaks to Steve Forte's ability, instead of validating the Zarrow. In comparison, I think the push-through is much more deceptive. I think a casual observer naturally assumes that when the woven cards are pushed together, the shuffle is complete, and thus they are convinced that the shuffle is fair. Also, the deceptiveness of the push-through is much less dependent on the grips used for the riffle and the square-up. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Those who know will very seldom be perplexed by what is exhibited.
Note that nobody has ever exhibited anything here that has perplexed all the experts.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
“The Zarrow shuffle is a valuable move for card magic, but I don't think it's a deceptive move.”
Orwell's 1984 doublethink!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Thomas Gilroy New user Ireland 70 Posts |
Hi Tommy,
I don't see how there is any "doublethink" there at all. I don't think the move itself is deceptive. I don't think that you could focus the attention of an observer on a Zarrow shuffle and reasonably expect that they would not notice what is happening. However, in the context of magic performance, with suitable misdirection, I think the move has merit. In that context, it is the presentation or patter that is deceptive, not the move. I think the move can go unseen, but I don't think it is invisible. In this respect, I think it's similar to a classic pass. When attention is drawn to the move, I think the move is obvious. A move can have value to card magic and not be deceptive. |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
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On Mar 21, 2017, Thomas Gilroy wrote: That is an excellent point. The same applies to card hustling. In many cases, it is more the con, grift sense and the timing that makes many gaffs and moves work, or at least work much better. Similar concepts here. Quote:
I think the move can go unseen, but I don't think it is invisible. In this respect, I think it's similar to a classic pass. When attention is drawn to the move, I think the move is obvious. A move can have value to card magic and not be deceptive. Once again the same applies to hustling with cards. I have seen a hustler with a mediocre bottom deal get the money over and over again. He had a great deal of experience and it was the timing of the move, lulling the people into complacency, moving at the right time and not doing anything fast or suspicious looking. If anyone was "gunning his hands" as he was dealing, he just would not make the move. Because of his friendly and pleasant personality it would be rare for him to get any real scrutiny while dealing. He was just one of the guys having a good time. Like the classic pass as mentioned. If you look directly at the hands, you know something happened. But...if you look in the general direction but not at the hands, if smoothly done you will not see anything. Many "movers" think that a move must be impeccable to succeed. Of course, one wants to have a move mastered as adroitly as possible, especially for video demos. But many moves cannot be performed in a completely undetectable manner because of their inherent "weaknesses." Many "movers" cannot conceive or really understand why a mediocre bottom deal in the right hands would work in a game better than their impeccable bottom deal. The reason is they just don't understand these additional elements - the timing, grift sense, con, shading involved, etc. that make it all work. To put it another way, oftentimes it is "the tail that wags the dog" that is the key element so to speak, not the superb execution of the move. |
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cbharrelson Regular user 167 Posts |
I have a question if you ha a top stock of 15 cards dou you do a push through or do you do a top stock shuffle? If you do atop stock shuffle with several cards in the stock do you do an open shuffle and hope they don't notice the clump. Erdnase did not. Steve forte has the best zarrow besides Gary plants. Some of the moves in Steves are better than Gary's but it is very noticeable when he changes the shuffle if he did all his riffle shuffles in this manner it would be deceptive because he cold throw in a zarrow unnoticed.etdnase stressed uniformity of action.
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cbharrelson Regular user 167 Posts |
Cag is absolutely correct about misdirection. He is spot on. Take bill Malone for example he uses the zarrow a lot but he always shuffles the same. And my friend Arnold can appreciate this I use drills for my false shuffle just like a 2nd deal. I do a a push through with a block transfer then strip the cards to the right and the do a zarrow then an honest shuffle then a top stock control. All shuffles same erdnase closed shuffle. Thousands and thousands of times in front of a mirror all shuffles look the same.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
When I tested the Z I didn’t use misdirection; it would have been a pointless exercise if I had.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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cbharrelson Regular user 167 Posts |
Here is a little more food for thought. Tommy why are poker dealers required to shuffle the same every time? When Steve forte shuffles and deals it is so smooth and professional I can't take my eyes off of the deck even when he is doing a demo of an honest shuffle. And to friend Arnold I do a good zarrow but I can't do a good video.
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cbharrelson Regular user 167 Posts |
Arnold I also don't look as good as these fellows I would be embarrased.
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
Too sad for my eyes, but I'm okay with it.
Thanks for answering. Appreciated. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
So you can spot the fake; fakes are always a little different than the rest.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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