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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » The Undetectible Zarrow Shuffle (19 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Taylor Haws
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On Sep 4, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:

I don't think he's actually riffling the corners together at all before he sets the step. That would eliminate the need for to undo the weave, and I think it's a totally valid handling.


I'm pretty sure that he is accualy riffling them together, but just barely.
rnaviaux
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I recently met a retired professional poker player. Had a chance to do some effects for him. He didn't catch any false shuffles, etc. Admittedly, this was a series of 1 so means little. But I was curious what his knowledge level would be. On the flip side his understanding of the math involved in poker was way over my head.

I have a theory that if there is money involved then someone is trying to cheat. Seems like a good rule of thumb.

I was quite taken by a recent lecture by Mr. England (At the Table Live Lecture series)in which he mentioned that once you are familiar with the Zarrow then it will no longer fool you. I think that's really the crux of the "Undetectible Zarrow." You can only make it undetectable to someone who is unaware of the technique.
Jerry
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Rnaviaux: "You can only make it undetectable to someone who is unaware of the technique".

You present an excellent point.
Perhaps the reason this shuffle is so obvious to some, is because they know the method.
Selective attention, the "Invisible Gorilla" is an example of this.

I am really would like to have poker game (with no money involved) and use "magician's technique" to put this theory to test and see what if it would get detected.
rnaviaux
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On Sep 5, 2018, Jerry wrote:
Rnaviaux: "You can only make it undetectable to someone who is unaware of the technique".

You present an excellent point.
Perhaps the reason this shuffle is so obvious to some, is because they know the method.
Selective attention, the "Invisible Gorilla" is an example of this.

I am really would like to have poker game (with no money involved) and use "magician's technique" to put this theory to test and see what if it would get detected.



I only wish I had come up with that point on my own:) I remember working diligently on my zarrow so my magic buddies would say they couldn't see it. But they always did. Never occurred to me it just might not be possible to make it invisible.
KardSharp89
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On Jul 9, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 7, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

While I value the suggestion, I am not going to "pony up" to get the DVD. Smile


I helped produce the DVD. I have 700 of them in my closet downstairs. Send me your address and I'll drop you one.

As far as false shuffles like the Zarrow fooling serious card players. Is a game with pots of $30K, 40K or 60K "serious" enough for you? I personally sat in the room while Rod dealt games at that level in 2010. He used his tabled faro (ala Sharps and Flats), strip outs and the occasional Zarrow to set briefs. No one said a word. He crushed the game including demolishing a main event bracelet winner.



Cag, you have some weird issue with equating big money with knowledgeable players. When are you going to accept the fact that that concept DIED about 15 years ago with the poker boom and the rise of the internet poker scene? We have an ENTIRE generation of phenomenal poker players (who've played 100 times the hands that Doyle Brunson has played in his life) but that who have never seen a false shuffle in real life. These players are playing for very serious money, I assure you. But they can't spot cheating moves based solely on their dollar amounts. You simply CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT equate big money and poker knowledge with cheating knowledge. The internet poker boom destroyed that idea.

Players may or may not be able to spot cheating moves, but it has NOTHING to do with the dollar amounts being wagered. I'm a $1-2 HE player at best, but good luck getting a false shuffle by me. Meanwhile those Internet whiz-kids that showed up in S. California on Dec 29th, 2010 with $100K each in brown grocery sacks went home unhappy.

You know a lot about gambling and cheating, but on this issue your knowledge is past its expiration date. You're perpetuating a myth. Stop it.

Jason

Jason is 100% correct. When you talk high stakes... I've played in some of the biggest private games in the world. (Jason knows this)...and I can assure you..these young internet kids like Durr etc.. wouldn't be able to spot a one handed Shank being dealt by Captain Hook!. Now...some of the older guys...that's a different story. But most of the players playing in games that have a few million dollars on the table don't even know how to shuffle the cards because they've never played in a dealers choice game! ...like ever!
- Houston Curtis
Here is a fun old false shuffle from Buckley's Card Control... I will neither confirm, nor deny that I have personally used this to deal a 5 player hand of SHOWDOWN at the end of the night with each player putting up 10k. Worked like a charm. https://youtu.be/cZb33ADoku4
He's leaving town tomorrow...so let's go ahead and skin him.
Cagliostro
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Yes, that is the V shuffle, one of the first shuffles I ever learned right after the Erdnase shuffles. It can be employed effectively as shown or the square up can be done with a little more cover than demonstrated.
KardSharp89
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I purposely showed less cover from the POV angle so people could see what was happening. The way I do it at the end of the video uses about as much cover as the move needs in my opinion. It's all about the square up. But my point being...even an old move like this will fly right past these young players today. So...a well done Zarrow will definitely get the money in todays games...especially if there is a center dealer (which most of the big games have now). And don't get me started on chip heisting. In the right game, its like giving the dealer a key to the bank vault and telling him just to lock up on his way out!
He's leaving town tomorrow...so let's go ahead and skin him.
KardSharp89
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Quote:
On Sep 5, 2018, rnaviaux wrote:
I recently met a retired professional poker player. Had a chance to do some effects for him. He didn't catch any false shuffles, etc. Admittedly, this was a series of 1 so means little. But I was curious what his knowledge level would be. On the flip side his understanding of the math involved in poker was way over my head.

I have a theory that if there is money involved then someone is trying to cheat. Seems like a good rule of thumb.

I was quite taken by a recent lecture by Mr. England (At the Table Live Lecture series)in which he mentioned that once you are familiar with the Zarrow then it will no longer fool you. I think that's really the crux of the "Undetectible Zarrow." You can only make it undetectable to someone who is unaware of the technique.

I agree with you completely! A good example of this is the marked deck by DMZ. (The DMZ Elites)...a genius marking system for doing magic tricks etc. But once you know the key, you can never "unlearn it".
He's leaving town tomorrow...so let's go ahead and skin him.
Cagliostro
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I guess I should address this post by Jason England as it was re-posted by KardSharp89. (Gee, I hope these two guys are not colluding against me on this.) Smile

Quote:
On Jul 9, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:

As far as false shuffles like the Zarrow fooling serious card players. Is a game with pots of $30K, 40K or 60K "serious" enough for you? I personally sat in the room while Rod dealt games at that level in 2010. He used his tabled faro (ala Sharps and Flats), strip outs and the occasional Zarrow to set briefs. No one said a word. He crushed the game including demolishing a main event bracelet winner.


Okay, regarding the Zarrow shuffle, my original post on this thread is as follows:

Quote:
On Feb 7, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:

I have mentioned a few times that the Zarrow Shuffle in its original form is one of the worst card table moves imaginable. Flawed on several levels it is routinely murdered by magicians and demonstrators as they fool themselves looking down at their hands as they perform the shuffle.


Note that I specifically said "in its original form" and I stand by that. It can be made much more deceptive, usually by eliminating the slip cut and covering the cards more on the square up. I have used it myself quite a few times to shuffle in a brief, but I know from experience where, when and against whom to use it. This precautionary caveat applies to ANY move or ploy. It is called grift sense.

Also, Rod the Hop was a real pro and knew when and where he could get his moves on. That is critical when moving. Your anecdotal story about him above relates to a specific occasion or occasions where you were an observer and he played many more times and in many more games than you observed, so you don't really know how many times he got specific moves on and how many times he had to back off from doing so. Even with that being said, he still was caught from time to time - everyone who cheats over a period of time will be regardless of how good he is.

Quote:
Cag, you have some weird issue with equating big money with knowledgeable players. When are you going to accept the fact that that concept DIED about 15 years ago with the poker boom and the rise of the internet poker scene? We have an ENTIRE generation of phenomenal poker players (who've played 100 times the hands that Doyle Brunson has played in his life) but that who have never seen a false shuffle in real life. These players are playing for very serious money, I assure you. But they can't spot cheating moves based solely on their dollar amounts. You simply CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT equate big money and poker knowledge with cheating knowledge. The internet poker boom destroyed that idea.


I agree with that but only in part. There have always been a lot of unformed fish "swimming around" in the poker pool. Taking the entire poker spectrum of payers, most would not see an elephant walk across the table, regardless of the money size of the game. So maybe 1%, 5%, 10% (take your pick) of players would spot card moves in a cash game or tournament. My point is, GENERALLY you are more likely to have someone in the game that can spot chicanery in higher no-limit cash games than you will in 1-$2 cash games simply because the more experienced players will gravitate to higher limit games. Also, you will tend to have better players at higher limits than in the small time games.

Sure, you might have someone very knowledgeable in a $1-$2 ante cash game, but so what? One only needs one player out of the entire player spectrum who plays over time in a specific game to spot something. That does not mean there are not a lot of fish in higher limit games. There are and thankfully so. Some of the biggest players know very little, or almost nothing. The reason I talk about higher limit games is because those are the games I played in. They also tend to be harder to beat because one tends to encounter better players at the higher levels...GENERALLY SPEAKING.

Also, in large part players do not have to be as knowledgeable nowadays as they are playing with house dealers in a casino environment protected by the ever-present cameras. Whether or not they could spot seconds, bottoms, hopping the cut, a Zarrow shuffle, etc. is really not that applicable except in unique situations. Much of these moves are not just 15 years behind the times, they are almost ancient history. Other methods are used more effectively in today's casino and professional environment. So whether or not a big money player can be fooled by a false shuffle or second deal on a practical level is irrelevant. Will they ever encounter these common moves in the casino dealt or online games they play in. Not likely. Fooling them with these old time moves for the most part proves nothing. As I said, other methods are used nowadays, of necessity.

Quote:
You know a lot about gambling and cheating, but on this issue your knowledge is past its expiration date. You're perpetuating a myth. Stop it.


"Stop it"??? Smile

Hopefully the above explanation clarifies my thinking on the subject. Smile
Cagliostro
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On Oct 18, 2018, KardSharp89 wrote:

...A good example of this is the marked deck by DMZ. (The DMZ Elites)...a genius marking system for doing magic tricks etc. But once you know the key, you can never "unlearn it".


Caveat. Use great care if cheating with these cards in the meeting rooms on the DMZ between North and South Korea. The players are not very knowledgeable, but if caught... Smile
JasonEngland
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Cag,

I know you get it. I just take issue with your choice of words sometimes.

It boils down to this: Lots of brick and mortar and/or private play and exposure to cheating moves = more likely to spot cheating moves.

Doesn't matter if your BM or private play was $1-2 or $1k - 2k.

And yes, 20+ years ago there was a 100% correlation between high-stakes games and experience in BM/private games. Internet poker was just beginning in 1998, so of course the correlation was 100%. It's been dropping ever since.

Today, that correlation is a TINY FRACTION of what it once was.

Pick at random a poker player playing $1k -2k HE in a casino game today. I'll bet you even money he made his bankroll online (and still plays there if he can).

That's a very safe bet for me.

And if he did make that money online, then he wasn't being exposed to manipulative cheating techniques.

Today, it isn't the amount of money that should scare potential cheats thinking of moving in a private game, it's the age of the players! Show me a guy that's in his 70s that's been playing for 40 years and I'll bet that guy has seen a few things! Him I'm worried about. Show me a guy with a million dollar bankroll and I'm not as concerned. Chances are EXCELLENT that he built up that million sitting in his underwear.

Hopefully the above clarifies my thinking on the subject.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Cagliostro
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@jason: We really have no disagreement here.

Regarding my choice of words, well...I'm still working on my English...I'll get it down eventually.
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