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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » We should all be using dollar size coins (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Mb217
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Sounds like a good bet warren... Smile

I too enjoy the flexibility of use of TP, but it is a bit more challenging to do with dollar-size coins. Don't get me wrong, it's not impossible but the coins are a bit heavier and larger to hide without notice. Obviously depending upon your hands and your comfortability.

For this reason, I use half dollar size coins for coins across action as it's much easier and effective to pull off. And as you say, I use the dollar size coins to do my version of 3-Fly...definitely more visual IMHO. Smile

Chris Kenner once said something like, "People that use half dollars for 3-Fly, just don't get it," or something like that. Now, of course, the folks that use half dollars for it don't agree but such is life...Which brings us to, "To each his own." Smile
*Check out my latest: Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Not much new under the sun I hear but under the moon, well who knows, that just might be a horse of a different color." -Mb Smile
warren
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Agreed, I think it's all about using the right tools for the job but I must admit magic done with the bigger coins is visual and very magical if and I do mean if it is performed well Smile
Hare
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Since it's being discussed, I thought I would offer the observation that a Morgan dollar is just a tiny fraction larger than my two middle fingers.

While this makes finger palm slightly more tricksy, it has the benefit, in my opinion, of making front and back palming (ala Downs) rather easier to manage.

I think that most advanced coin magicians look, (or should view), at holds as tools to be used when and where best applicable. I think that each magician should develop his own favorite means of locomotion for getting a coin from point "A" to "B" to "C"- and that not all holds serve every magician the same.

For instance, if you peruse Futagawa's quite lucid beginners tome "Introduction to Coin Magic", you see a preponderance for the use of what I call "clips" as holds- grasping coins by their edges betwixt fingers, rather than around a coin edge-grip style as used more often and regularly in Roth's later works. With Hay's mid-50's Handbook, there is a preponderance of Down's edge palming. None of these approaches of working is inherently better than the other- it just shows different approaches to the same problems. Few magicians use all of the means of "getting around" behind the scenes. Most magicians favor a handful of holds, and develop these few as much as possible. I suppose the ultimate coin magi can use these holds in both directions- certainly mid 20th century and earlier books on magic suggest that a magician learn to do this.

When one focuses on one particular hold, it's bound to lead to favoring another one which is easily maneuvered to from the initial position. So, there is lots of finger clipping directly to finger palming in Futagawa, whereas, for anyone edge palming, you are sure to go to fingertip rest as your next "spot" along the way in your journey to making your magic.

My point is, we as coin magi should always be looking at what tools we use in the big picture, and what it is we are trying to accomplish beyond one trick. We should have the goal of being able to integrate what we know into new tricks with ease. With all effects, we need to make as big a final impact as we possibly can, and use the holds, passes and coins at our disposal that best display the effect we wish to create. After all the efforts we put into the "behind the scenes" parts of learning to juggle circular bits of metal, surely we want the largest Ka-pow we can deliver to the audience at the climax of our magical presentation.
"Better described in The Amateur Magician's Handbook"
Danwseers
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Quote:
On Feb 16, 2017, warren wrote:
Evikshin to quote you " A rule of thumb is to see if the width of the coin exceeds the width of your middle and ring finger. If it doesn't exceed, you are good, if it exceeds it, then you have issues with proper concealment.
Forgot where I read this, but I think it's true. A dollar coin just fractionally exceeds the width of my fingers, so I can make it work after lots of practice. "

The place you probably got this from was Kainoa Harbottle, with that in mind whilst using larger coins is good I think there's a lot of stuff you can do with smaller coins which you can't do with larger coins and visa versa of course.


I can see there being many pros/cons to such a guideline. Ponta's nonchalant concealment display at !@#$** p*** improves in appearance because the coins exceed the middle/third finger width. Similarly, b*** p*** is more natural, and Atsukawa's bullet propulsion requires the greater size. Also, consider the benefits to the retention burn from the larger surface area.

Concealment as dependent upon coin size seemingly runs afoul of jumbo coin work; obviously, I am not suggesting your reasoning was dogmatic, only offering to others that might not have fully formed beliefs that there are many advantages of the larger sizes.

For the other member's comment about Goshman/Tenkai pinch, with the dollar coin resting at 45 degrees simply requires more of a downward tilt of the hand,or take another step towards the spectator. I like Wolf's comment that after using dollars, halves feel like quarters.

P. S. Hi 1st post everybody;)
warren
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Welcome to the Café Danwseers I hope you enjoy your time here and look forward to more of your posts.

As I said I think it's all about using the right tools for the job as well as taking into consideration hand size, performing environment etc, there are some great coin workers out there that use mainly half dollar size coins as their main tool from David Roth to Eric Jones just as there are other well known coin workers that use dollar size coins.

Here in the UK our regular coins are quite small with our largest coins being roughly half dollar size which means that as most of my coin work is done with British currency I'm more used to the smaller size coins apart from when I perform 3 fly for which dollar size coins are by far the best coins to use.

At the end of the day I love coin magic and don't care if its with large or small coins if it's performed well I'm happy Smile
Danwseers
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On Feb 19, 2017, warren wrote:
Welcome to the Café Danwseers I hope you enjoy your time here and look forward to more of your posts.

As I said I think it's all about using the right tools for the job as well as taking into consideration hand size, performing environment etc, there are some great coin workers out there that use mainly half dollar size coins as their main tool from David Roth to Eric Jones just as there are other well known coin workers that use dollar size coins.

Here in the UK our regular coins are quite small with our largest coins being roughly half dollar size which means that as most of my coin work is done with British currency I'm more used to the smaller size coins apart from when I perform 3 fly for which dollar size coins are by far the best coins to use.

At the end of the day I love coin magic and don't care if its with large or small coins if it's performed well I'm happy Smile


Thanks warren! I understand where you are coming from. You raise another point that is exceptionally important, and that is to primarily work with materials familiar to your audience. It would be odd for me to start performing with English coins, as most people in the US are not familiar with them. I believe I have spied Kainoa using a half crown a time or two, but I believe it would raise more suspicions than resolve. Morgans are not too far behind in terms of familiar coinage. Perhaps they serve as a polite history lesson for the whipper snappers (I am 37).
warren
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I wish I was 37 again haha Smile
Danwseers
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On Feb 20, 2017, warren wrote:
I wish I was 37 again haha Smile


I do have grey hair...I blame it on my kids:)
jljones83
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I have found it easier (usually) to work with Dollar coins rather than halfs. I find it WAY easier to CP a Eisenhower dollar rather than a Kennedy half.
The one thing I've been struggling with is working on a coins across with dollar coins, it's difficult to maneuver the coins around for a HPC since they're so much larger.
Other than that, I really prefer using dollar coins. But, I'm newer to coin than I am to schools of magic, and I started with dollar coins thanks to advice I saw on the Café and other sources.
StarManager
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It's dollars for me too - but I have large hands. I spent a decade with Halves before realizing the beauty, weight and impact to the audience of real river and brass and copper dollars. From Spellbound to Samoya to 3 fly's there is LESS to get caught because the edges are easier to grip and the palms more natural. The drawback is just the cost - 1884 Matching Morgans from Todd Lassen can set you back a bit . . . .but bring a smile to my lips and a twinkle to my eye every single time I work with them - even at home just for myself. Great thread!
"I'm a professional magician and once in a while I even work." Jonathan Todd Excelsior (StarManager)
CarpetShark
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Many interesting posts in this thread. One thing some of you may want to consider is if a Morgan is too big go with a slightly smaller coin,e.g. a Canadian silver dollar is 36mm in diameter, whereas Morgans tend to be a couple of millimeters larger. It's surprising how much of a difference this makes! Of course there are other choices out there and yes, I realize gaff availability could be an issue but that's where craftmen such as Roy K come in. Just a thought...
daniel116
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Has anyone considered using coins other than halves and dollars?
There is so much discussion about halves vs dollars because none of them is the right size!
I use old French coins, old coins from the Czech Republic, old Israeli coins, and many other old European coins that are BETWEEN a half and a dollar, that I've found in flea markets over the years for no more than 5 dollars a piece.
That way I "enjoy" most of the two worlds: big, visual coins that are easy to handle.

I'm not from the US and so even when performing with half dollars (never performed with morgans) I have to begin by "introducing" these unique american coins to the audience, so what's stopping me from introducing coins other than halves and morgans?
I would imagine it's the same thing in the US, you don't just take a Morgan Dollar out and start performing, it's not an object that is familiar to everybody in the audience, try using other coins that are comfortable to you and see what happens.
CarpetShark
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Quote:
On Apr 14, 2017, daniel116 wrote:
Has anyone considered using coins other than halves and dollars?
There is so much discussion about halves vs dollars because none of them is the right size!
I use old French coins, old coins from the Czech Republic, old Israeli coins, and many other old European coins that are BETWEEN a half and a dollar, that I've found in flea markets over the years for no more than 5 dollars a piece.
That way I "enjoy" most of the two worlds: big, visual coins that are easy to handle.

I'm not from the US and so even when performing with half dollars (never performed with morgans) I have to begin by "introducing" these unique american coins to the audience, so what's stopping me from introducing coins other than halves and morgans?
I would imagine it's the same thing in the US, you don't just take a Morgan Dollar out and start performing, it's not an object that is familiar to everybody in the audience, try using other coins that are comfortable to you and see what happens.


Gee, wish I had thought of that ! What I've found is most people have zero interest in what type of coins are appearing/disappearing... it's about the illusion and NOT the tools used to create the magic. There is a strong bias towards using Morgans and Kenedies - which in itself is not a bad thing, but there is also room for other choices. Keep this in mind if you find different coins 'fit' your hands better.
evikshin
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I've been using the Philippine 1 Peso coin from 1907-1910, they are almost as big as American Silver dollars in terms of diameter, but they are only a little bit thicker than a Kennedy Half! So best of both worlds, they are big but thin. The thinness allows easier palming, and the larger diameter makes visibility much better than halves. I have stockpiled a bunch over the past few months. At 80% silver, they are more resistant to dents and scratches, and are also not as expensive as American Silver Dollars. Also, they tend to come naturally "soft," if that is important to you.
Dougini
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I don't have a lot of $$$, so I got 10 Ikes from the bank for $10. I got an Ike Expanded [ for $60. With four Ikes and a [, I can do a Coins Across/Thru The Table routine. I also have a Sudbury Penny. With a Spellbound-type presentation, some Copper/Silver effects are accomplished. What's missing is, a C/S coin in that size. With half dollars, I can do a Crimp Switch/Change with either hand. Then, adding an English Penny and a Chinese Coin, a TRIPLE change is accomplished. Plus, I have [s in half and quarter-size as well.

SOH with quarters is not practical, so I use a table and close-up pad. It was asked: Who uses ONLY Dollar coins...good question. I think Mickey Silver was using only Dollars...not sure.

Doug.
vinsmagic
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I use the silver 1907 peso coins I find this is a perfect size for me..
vinny
great post doc
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
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