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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1866 Posts |
Here we go again with the typical passive aggresive attacks - all too common here. Talk @#$!! about somebody then feign innocence afterwards when they call you on it...
I'm going to bow out of this conversation now because if I don't, I am going to get myself in hot water. And by the way, the name is Thor - not Thorr. |
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Alexxander Elite user Frankfurt, Germany 423 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 12, 2017, Mindpro wrote: Well, that certainly sounds like a fine idea, but this is simply not the way people get started. People start because they experienced the astonishment of a magic or mentalism performance and want to learn how to do it too. It's as simple as that. I think that these theoretical considerations you mentioned DO indeed play a significant role in the education of a mentalist, but not at the start. You get started by performing. Even Bob always recommended Henry Hay's Amateur Magicians Handbook as a starting point. It's a book full of methods and effects. I fully understand your wish to educate people about theoretical foundations of mentalism, but I think this comes with time and practice. |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1866 Posts |
After thinking on it a few minutes...
Forget it. I could care less and I'm not going anywhere. Better get used to it. Quote:
On Feb 15, 2017, Alexxander wrote: Couldn't have said it better. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Why reveal sudo's first name? maybe we could start revealing other people's names too...
for some, mentalism is a static art - its probably the artform practiced where some would have you never deviate or try different things...if musicians thought the same, everyone with a guitar that sang the blues would sound like howlin' wolf or muddy waters, or played the harmonica and sound like little walter... howlin' wolf used to complain about the white boy RnB invasion, but then made an album with them all...and it was pretty good... so yes, definitely always, always learn the differences, the history, the classic techniques and routines - I don't think anyone is saying to resist doing that...and I think the frustrating thing more often than not, are the huge broadbrush strokes that everyone gets painted in if you're not a stage mentalist...(and the weird sucking up to the pro's at every given opportunity no matter what) - its annoying, its probably why its done from time to time, to provoke and then say "well, I didn't mean abc, I mean xyz..." what you ACTUALLY get over here in the uk is quite a division, there are plenty of parlour and stage style mentalists who do not do anything else....but some do...see? in this day and age, there's many channels to make your money, strengthen your brand and so on...i know people who have a two person act, a walk around set and a stage act... resist the urge to say "well, he's going to be seen as a magician then isn't he...". No. No he's not. Because he knows the dynamics and differences, and more importanly, YOU have not seen the acts, and as you don't know anything about the things you don't like (because you're not speaking from experience of those things) - then what's the motivation to say it, othere thatn IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, you have seen people do walk around, claiming they are a mentalist, when they're just doing some mental magic... this does not speak on behalf of everyone, have can it? seeing a lot fo them means that a lot of magicians try to put mentalism into their act...they are not mentalists...they don't recognise the differences...so labelling them as mentalists makes no sense other to support a point of view... so over here, there's guys who do banquet, parlour, mix 'n mingle, and some tour a fresh show every single year...they win awards, they achieve things, they work hard... The UK scene is much milaigned by this place, because you can go read latest and greatest and get the absolute worst experience and 'insights'...if your only experience is of chatter on here, that's not fair...for those that do probless, and do it badly, that's magicians and a handful of mental-magicians trying to mimic pete turner and others... have you ever seen the average audience members of penguin lectures? older men twirling cards during a docc Hilford lecture, so few young people...some, but not that many... remember the opening paragraph of PME, where annemann fires off a rallying cry of the crystal gazer, the podium and so on? he was fresh and new...he wanted change...and again, when the first raft of new age thinking came in, it was suddenly about chakras and crystals and candles...of mind-to-mind contact.... i think if annemann came back, he'd say "what? you still do it like *that*?!" every art form has to change, for good and bad, because it should be 'living'...it should reflect society of its day as past as the past... give those who work hard and understand the differences a little more room to breathe... of course a newbie shouldnt tell an experienced stage performer how to do it, but if they're using a forum to discuss things, then not every question is a dig or criticism...its just a question because they wanna understand something...
I've asked to be banned
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Luan New user 10 Posts |
I'm loving the discussions on here. Sad that it maybe turned a bit sour but what can we do, this is, after all and internet forum :').
I would like to add to the post that, recently I started performing a simple trick for my friends, involving bi***t sw****ing. Coming from a magic background as I do, I noticed things ( this is from 5 performances at most ) that I thought were weird, and I haven't seen mentalists do. That is that whenever I was clean I would make it a point, I would show my hand empty, would emphasize that I'm not making any moves. That is one thing I noticed I do, that was a very weird thing. Any other people have had same experiences and revelations like this, care to share ? The other thing I decided to do, taking everyones advice was that I would learn a few basic techniques first, and some effects so that I can start performing right away. I will make a list of the "path" I want to take below, and if anyone has some recommendations on a change or a new point please do share. * Learn some basic techniques used in mentalism (bi***t sw****ing, ce***r t**r, pe**s etc -- please add if you have any suggestions) * Learn some effects using said techniques. * Performing those effects to gain knowledge on the difference between magic and mentalism, and also general tips on how to perform and what gets the most reaction. * Later on, start reading more and more on theory, and character development so I find my style. *??? *Profit. Any addition or change is greatly welcomed. That being said, can you please recommend some generally good effects, but also any effect that would help in bettering my performance and getting me more comfortable to doing something as bold as looking at what they just wrote and repeating it to them as if I have no idea. Again, thank you all. -Luan |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Why not try the richard osterlind Easy to Master Menal Miracles dvds?
I've asked to be banned
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1866 Posts |
I can only assume I missed something and that a post was removed, because my actual name isn't appearing. But even if it did appear - big deal. It's not a big secret and I have nothing to hide anymore. I came on here several weeks ago and apologized for my deceptions and gave the reasons for doing so. And I'm glad that I did. I refuse to feel ashamed any further just because I fell into a dark place in my past. I can only learn from it. If somebody feels that is a tactic worth employing, it is only revealing of their true character and is pretty unclassy to say the least. Even if I hadn't had this issue in my past, I would still use a pseudonym - you see, I ACTUALLY use the material with audiences that I've released and shared with others.
I have performed many a stage show too. It's silly for anybody to make assumptions. I am more than happy to post pics of some of my stage performances too. I just don't favor stage, but I'd take a stage show in the past if necessary to pay the bills. I prefer the intimacy of close-up performances. One thing that has always bothered me about stage shows is that you are ABOVE the audience. I feel that spatial difference subconsciously transmits a notion that I am ABOVE them and it bothers me. I much prefer to be at eye-to-eye level with my audience. Yes, the material is a little different in a close environment (for obvious reasons), but that doesn't mean that it can't be just as equally effective. Iain's post was very insightful (as he often is) and very nicely summarizes a number of issues. As I've mentioned before, I really do believe that, as a group, we would be much better off united as brothers then divided by dogma and ego. How boring it would be if we were all the same. The world is rife with division these days and it is both sickening and sad to see. I recommended Osterlind at the beginning of this thread, and his Easy to Master mental Miracles has been recommended by Iain as well. You really absolutely cannot go wrong with that set. Another series that is excellent and contain a good number of modern classics is Max Maven's VideoMind Series. Add a copy of Practical Mental Effects into the basket and you really will have more than enough material to keep you VERY busy for a long time. There is so much good material in these that one could easily make a living with. Once you get going, you will be able to later determine if this is the path you want to walk, and if it is, then that becomes the time to start delving deeper into some of the more theoretical texts - at your own pace. And I apologize Luan, as it is partially my fault that things got a little bit sour in here - I just have a hard time biting my tongue when I hear lines of division. |
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January Veteran user 390 Posts |
Quote:
That is that whenever I was clean I would make it a point, I would show my hand empty, would emphasize that I'm not making any moves. That is one thing I noticed I do, that was a very weird thing. Any other people have had same experiences and revelations like this, care to share ? Yes, this is a big no-no for mentalists. You never want the audience to even know you have any hands, much less call attention to empty ones. I did not come from a magic background, but I did experience the beginner impulse to really call attention to certain parts of the routine, especially those that would imply physical manipulation, and say, "LOOK I NEVER TOUCHED THE CARDS OR LOOKED AT THEM OR ANYTHING!!" but I learned it's just best just to leave that alone. |
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January Veteran user 390 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 16, 2017, Luan wrote: I reread your post and wanted to add one more thing about this final comment. Look up some basic material on method acting, because a lot of mentalism hinges upon really believing yourself when you do something bold. When I act like I'm reading someone's mind, I really do try to do it. Sure, perhaps I already have the information, but I really try to do it. I remember as a child reading some fantasy books and wondering if telekinesis was possible. I sat in my room and genuinely tried to get a pencil to roll around on a table. I failed, but that genuine, childlike attempt is sort of what I want to get back to now. I want to really, genuinely try to bend metal, or read someone's mind and not just halfheartedly attempt to do it, or worse, just snap my fingers. When I'm performing mentalism, I need to genuinely be trying to read their mind. It's basically just a simple application of Stanislavski's "Magic If." If I really were able to read people's minds, it would probably take a lot of effort, and my attitude would be so different from someone doing a casual card trick at a party. |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1866 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 16, 2017, January wrote: I think I'd have to mostly agree with this. Over-proving is a definite carry-over from the Magician side of things - particularly with hands. Sometimes though, when it comes to cards etc, there are exceptions when you might actually really need to point out certain things such as "I have never touched the cards or looked through them" etc, etc. Not saying that's always the case, but there are times when doing so is integral to having the audience being able to fully appreciate the impossibility or fairness of things. It is mostly routine dependent I think, and definitely shouldn't be overdone. Osterlind is a good example of this. He definitely does point out those details when it becomes a strength to do so. |
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January Veteran user 390 Posts |
Yes, you're absolutely right; I do think some of that is appropriate. I just more meant that I had a general tendency to over-prove things in a "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" way when I began.
As you say, subtle phrasings of this sort can be really good though, especially when they create false memories of what actually happened. |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1866 Posts |
I thought that's what you meant January - but figured I'd clarify a little just in case.
Luan, here's a little tip that I use for when doing things such as peeking info on a billet and repeating it as though I have no idea. I think a good number of other performers (or at least many of the ones I personally know) do this as well. Keep an internal dialog. When you do such things as peek info and then repeat it as if you have no idea, you really have to believe in your mind that at the moment you get that information that you really haven't seen anything and that the info is secure and the card isn't "see through" etc, etc. If you don't believe that with your entire being, your body language will subconsciously telegraph that fact to the audience. They might not know "what's up", but they will very often detect that something is "off." It is one of those things that you have to practice doing too. The concept is easy to understand, but it is not always easy to be mindful of - especially in the heat of performance. So my recommendation is to structure an internal dialog much the same way as you would as your verbal presentation and build it into your practice sessions. Also - that is a very excellent question you've asked. That kind of consideration makes me think that you're going to do just fine. |
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Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 16, 2017, Sudo Nimh wrote: Come on, Thorr. Don't be coy!
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
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Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
The last post is just a joke to tag onto IAIN's joke/pointed remark about names.
Quote:
Why reveal sudo's first name? maybe we could start revealing other people's names too... I already "liked" some of Sudo's advice earlier on in this thread. As an afterthought, perhaps "Sudo" will become a true name as even Max Maven's own mother calls him "Max"!
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
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MentalistCreationLab Inner circle 1528 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 13, 2017, IAIN wrote: With Mind Reach get a first edition only if your in the US as the second edition was changed and some very important things were removed. Which is oddly easier to find in the UK than here in the US. The Hurkos book is outstanding by the way. The other book to own and read is Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain by Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder as this book launched the psychic spy program and also had major influences modern mentalism. Actually these three book Hurkos, Mind Mind Reach and Psychic Discoveries should be read before anyone reads the 13th steps or any of Ted A work or any other trick based books, in the above 3 books lies the context to of the approach to mentalism performance. Plus if you have not read these three works your really missing out on what can be achieved through mentalism. The other recommended works are by Hereward Carrington (17 October 1880 – 26 December 1958) |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1866 Posts |
@ Alan:
Thanks for the extra clarification - looks like some of you have started to figure me out a bit. |
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The Crap Illusionist New user 14 Posts |
What a great and interesting thread...
Brilliant advice from most... Cheers, Crap
The Crap Illusionist
Medieval Magician, Mentalist and Part-time Escapologist... Member of the Leicester Magic Circle... TWITTER: @CrapIllusionist |
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Argon Regular user Germany 159 Posts |
Hi all,
Only speaking from me experience I would start learning performing before methods. How to do that depends on what learning type you are. I my case I watched all the mentalist and even some magic lectures, mainly penguin, I could get my hands on. After watching over 20 I admit I can hardly recall individual methods or tricks but I do have a broad sense and knowledge of how mentaliism can look like. As a bonus I can destill the essence of what I like and what not. The interesting thing is that I surprised myself in what and who I liked and enjoyed. Performers I always pushed to the back because I thought they were not my type endet up being the most entertaining for me. Now I know what I want to do and can start looking for effects that fit with my style. That's where the you can now test and see. I hope this helps. Cheers Stefan |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1866 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 26, 2017, Argon wrote: Good evening everyone. Tonight, I will perform a performance. It will be a great performance. Maybe the best performance ever. Believe me. This performance will be huge. So huge. So huge that it will be big. Very big. It will be so big. That will you get sick of it being so big. My friend over there at that place - He loves it! And those people down there at you know where - They love me too. Because everybody loves my performance. Believe me. Now there are some people. Who say that this performance is not huge and bigly. They lie. And that is because they are from that portion of the population that lies. But this performance will be magificent. I believe this. Magnificent and huge. And that's what I think about this performance. Let's make being huge great again! This has been my performance. Everyone have a great night. Good night. (If you think long enough you'll get it - beyond the obvious. Multiple dimensions expressed at once in a huge and bigly way.) |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1866 Posts |
Sorry.
That last performance - had no actual method. Much like the person performing in it. |
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