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SoyMilky
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2017, Mr. Woolery wrote:
Jacob, a magician who does his tricks with video editing is not a magician. That's where the fraud is. If you claim to be performing magic, especially if you add fake crowd reactions, you are violating viewer trust.


Are you READY to accept that Davide Blaine, Chris Angel and Cyril arn't real Magicians then ? They have broken your code.

Most people around the world will see these three as Magicians, NOT YOU, you are a nobody compared to these three, so it seems your definition of a magicians is VERY DIFFERENT from the rest of the world and even most of the magicians here.

Where are you standing Mr. Woolery ? With the sheeps ? or on your own term ?
Are you READY to call them out as FAKES ?

Do you understand that the world see THEM as the REAL Magicians are not you with your pure stand on Magic ?

(I know it seems I am fighting with you Mr. Woolery, I am not, I am sharing the SAME STRUGGLE as you.
I stand with Hatred toward these people who use video editing passing as real magic CALLING THEMSELVES MAGICIANS and now that I have TV appearances, I have been approached and even suggested by producers that we do something together but with Video Editing to steroid the whole thing up.
I am now standing wondering where I am now...becoming what I hate ? Or start accepting that the world has move on and pure Magic is Two Thousand and LATE for TV Shows.....)
funsway
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Soymilky -- mIght I suggest that eliminating "hatred" from your set of chosen emotions and responses might open up an appreciation of awe and wonder in life as well as performing arts.

Yes, "magic" as I would like to perform it/see it seems to be declining towards skill demonstrations, 'gotcha mentality', and "just entertain me."

Also vanishing are concepts of integrity, accountability, permission, personal growth and "live-long" learning as a goal of education. Much to lament.

But hating someone or an idea accomplishes nothing.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Dougini
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2017, SoyMilky wrote:
Are you READY to accept that David Blaine, Chris Angel and Cyril aren't real Magicians then?


Yes. Yes I am. At least not the kind of magicians I ever wanted to be.

Quote:
On Mar 20, 2017, SoyMilky wrote:
...you are a nobody compared to these three...


LOL! I am a NOBODY compared to just about EVERYONE! Nobody knows who I am. And nobody cares...

Doug
Wizard of Oz
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2017, jacobsw wrote:
There's a filmmaker named Zach King who makes short films that involve (in his description) "digital sleight of hand." Everybody who watches them knows that it's video editing and special effects-- but millions of people watch his videos and end up truly entertained and amazed. Indeed, he delights his audience enough that he makes his living doing this "digital sleight of hand" full time.

Just on a personal level, when I watch one of Zach's videos, I get the exact same delighted, amazed, disbelief-suspending feeling that I get when I see a great live magician. Watch this and tell me if you agree:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoAmVSJ9iqw


I like Zach's videos a lot. They are entertaining on so many levels, but not deceivingly so. He's not performing, at least not in the way that we've been defining "performing" here, so I don't feel he's misleading his audience. He's simply having fun and letting us enjoy the show. Quite similar to seeing special effects in a film. We are all in on it, but have a great time pretending together. Honest deception if you will.

What I think is the issue here are false representations of truth. The notion that a video is showing us real footage - accurately rendered - when in fact it is nothing of the sort. The performer is not only lying about what his or her audience witnessed, but also about what skills he or she actually possesses.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
danaruns
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2017, jacobsw wrote:
Quote:
The proof of this is easy to see. Before showing any audience member a video, tell them up front that what they are seeing is done with video editing and special effects, not the magician's skill. They will remain unimpressed (except possibly with the technology), and will not be truly entertained or amazed by it.


But this experiment has been tried -- and it didn't come out the way you predict!

There's a filmmaker named Zach King who makes short films that involve (in his description) "digital sleight of hand." Everybody who watches them knows that it's video editing and special effects-- but millions of people watch his videos and end up truly entertained and amazed. Indeed, he delights his audience enough that he makes his living doing this "digital sleight of hand" full time.

Just on a personal level, when I watch one of Zach's videos, I get the exact same delighted, amazed, disbelief-suspending feeling that I get when I see a great live magician. Watch this and tell me if you agree:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoAmVSJ9iqw


I actually loved that. He wasn't pretending that he was a magician really doing magic when it was actually camera tricks, he was doing exactly what he represented himself to be doing. It was honest. So I have zero problem with this kind of thing. In fact, I enjoyed it a lot. This is not the kind of video I was disapproving of. I think this is great. I just wouldn't call it magic.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
jacobsw
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So it sounds like we all agree on the aesthetics -- we all agree that video trickery can make for a delightful experience, when it's in the right hands (and done totally openly).

What we disagree on is:

-If somebody is totally open about using video effects, should it be called "magic"?

-If somebody ISN'T open about using video effects, are they being dishonest?

I feel like the first question is a little tricky to discuss, because everybody's definitions are going to be different. But just for some historical perspective, stage magic and film effects weren't always separate. When film was first invented, it was very common for stage magicians to work it into their act as just another visual wonder. And George Melies -- who directed "A Trip To The Moon" and is considered one of the great pioneers of silent film special effects -- started off as a stage magician, then worked film into his act, and eventually switched over to filmmaking entirely. So pretty much since film was invented, film trickery and live trickery have bled into each other.

In terms of the ethics question, let me ask this: is it unethical for a stage magician to use stooges in a pickpocketing or mentalism routine?
Terrible Wizard
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I can only give my personal preference.

I liked the Paul Daniels magic show, and I like watching the performances of magicians before a crowd, like at the Magic Castle or before the L&L audience.

I don't like watching the TV shows of Dynamo, Blaine, Brown, etc - they bore me.

A large part of that difference is down to my thinking that the 'modern' TV stuff is all edits, stooges, angles, and SFX - even if it isn't I cant shake the feeling.
SoyMilky
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I LOVE ALL of your replies, so much so that I will address them one by one.
Starting with funsway.

Quote:
On Mar 20, 2017, funsway wrote:
Might I suggest that eliminating "hatred" from your set of chosen emotions and responses might open up an appreciation of awe and wonder in life as well as performing arts.

I am working towards that Mr. funsway, thank you.

Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, Dougini wrote:
LOL! I am a NOBODY compared to just about EVERYONE! Nobody knows who I am. And nobody cares...

You are NOT a nobody, I care about you.
YOU are among one of the few here who helped me in my art of thread work.
YOU matter to me.
I care about you because you cared enough to help me.
I wish I can see your show someday Dougini.
It means a LOT, Seriously, it means A LOT to me that you admit so openly that you do not see those big three as Magicians.
You being one of my inspirations, you have given me grounds to stand firm on certain beliefs of mine. THANK YOU !

Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, Wizard of Oz wrote:
What I think is the issue here are false representations of truth. The notion that a video is showing us real footage - accurately rendered - when in fact it is nothing of the sort. The performer is not only lying about what his or her audience witnessed, but also about what skills he or she actually possesses.

You are right, but it again comes down to the NATURE of our craft, at the heart of it all Magic is all about despicable deception, let's not pretend this isn't the case.
The only bad magic is the one that got caught.
So in this sense, video editing is also part of the magic if not caught, what do you think Wizard of Oz ?

Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, danaruns wrote:
I actually loved that. He wasn't pretending that he was a magician really doing magic when it was actually camera tricks, he was doing exactly what he represented himself to be doing. It was honest. So I have zero problem with this kind of thing. In fact, I enjoyed it a lot. This is not the kind of video I was disapproving of. I think this is great. I just wouldn't call it magic.

But people call him a magician :-(
danaruns, where is your stand on Chris Angel, David Blain and the likes ? Do you call them Magicians ? Do you recognize them as magicians ? I would love to hear your opinion.

Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, jacobsw wrote:
-If somebody ISN'T open about using video effects, are they being dishonest?

Here is my issue with myself about this, so please let's have a conversation Mr.jacobsw.
Magic at its core IS deception isn't it ?
Who are we to get off saying where to draw the line ? Magic at its core IS deception, TV just allowed for an added layer of MASSIVE deception from re-editing, re-sequencing, re-film and include as though it was there all along to outright in your face LYING. Maybe...maybe this IS the next generation of magic and we are all acting like grumpy old man the same way grumpy old magicians complain when the first book on magic was released in the library...what do you think ?

Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote:
I can only give my personal preference.
I don't like watching the TV shows of Dynamo, Blaine, Brown, etc - they bore me.

A large part of that difference is down to my thinking that the 'modern' TV stuff is all edits, stooges, angles, and SFX - even if it isn't I cant shake the feeling.

I find it very interesting that TV shows of fake magicians that totally pretend that they are actually good bores you with their exciting music and quick cuts.
That means somewhere in you is a purist at heart.
Good guy.
WitchDocChris
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What it really comes down to is this: What we call each other, and what we call ourselves, doesn't really matter. The audience will pick their own label for us, and that may be completely different to what we think it should be.
Christopher
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Dougini
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Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, SoyMilky wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, Dougini wrote:
LOL! I am a NOBODY compared to just about EVERYONE! Nobody knows who I am. And nobody cares...

You are NOT a nobody, I care about you...I care about you because you cared enough to help me.


I am just one of many Magicians Helping Magicians. It's why the Magic Café exists!

Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, SoyMilky wrote:
You being one of my inspirations, you have given me grounds to stand firm on certain beliefs of mine. THANK YOU !


Me?? An inspiration?? Wow. I don't know what to say...I'm humbled to say the least! I can see JoeJoe, Bob Cassidy, Pop Haydn, and many others being an inspiration. But ME?? Ha hahaha! Thank you.

Doug
SoyMilky
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Joe Joe is a straight up shooter and his contribution to the magic community is not to be underestimated.

I am using his super spinner for my gigs now.
Mr. Woolery
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Sorry to be late answering the questions put to me.

David Blaine and Chris Angel do have the skills and are certainly magicians. When they use SFX to achieve a false presentation of what we are supposed to believe was done live, in front of a real audience, they are not doing magic. That's when they turn into liars. And like Dougini, that's not the kind of magician I want to be.

I've enjoyed watching Zach for a couple of years now. Very good stuff. Not a magician, so not relevant. If he presented his videos as examples of things he can do in person, it would be germane to the discussion, but he doesn't so it isn't.

In terms of the magic world, I am indeed a nobody. Thank you so much for the belittling comment. However, is this meant to say that I don't have a right to an opinion about the matter? I am an amateur and not ashamed of it. My own experience is largely entertaining kids. In person. They would not stand for me showing them a video of a trick that I can't show them in person. That's not real magic.

Wizard of Oz summed up my feelings in a lot fewer words than I did: "What I think is the issue here are false representations of truth. The notion that a video is showing us real footage - accurately rendered - when in fact it is nothing of the sort. The performer is not only lying about what his or her audience witnessed, but also about what skills he or she actually possesses."

-Patrick
jacobsw
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Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, SoyMilky wrote:

Here is my issue with myself about this, so please let's have a conversation Mr.jacobsw.
Magic at its core IS deception isn't it ?
Who are we to get off saying where to draw the line ? Magic at its core IS deception, TV just allowed for an added layer of MASSIVE deception from re-editing, re-sequencing, re-film and include as though it was there all along to outright in your face LYING. Maybe...maybe this IS the next generation of magic and we are all acting like grumpy old man the same way grumpy old magicians complain when the first book on magic was released in the library...what do you think ?


I think the contract between a magician and an audience member is "The Magician will deceive the Audience, in order to temporarily challenge the Audience's beliefs about how reality works." As far as I'm concerned, that's the contract in full.

Obviously if somebody hypes their TV special as "No special effects! No edits! Exactly what you'd see in the audience!" then they are adding that promise to their contract with the audience. But if they don't say those words, then no form of deception is off the table.

Again, I don't LIKE unacknowledged video trickery. To me, it's like using stooges: iIt's unimpressive to me as a magician, and it's disappointing to me as an audience member when I learn that it was done. But it's not morally wrong.
hitlab
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Personally I am not a fan of video editing magic. It is kind of like a cop-out. When you see sleight of hands/live magic you rack your brain trying to figure out how a trick is done, and that is where the fun comes from. But when you see something on TV, when you can't figure it out, you will just think "it's probably done by video editing"
Mr. Woolery
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My first university degree was in broadcast journalism. Mostly audio work, so serious video editing was never in my skill set and all the equipment I learned on is totally obsolete anyway. However, I just spotted where I disagree with this:

"I think the contract between a magician and an audience member is "The Magician will deceive the Audience, in order to temporarily challenge the Audience's beliefs about how reality works." As far as I'm concerned, that's the contract in full. "

If deception is your only goal as a magician, I think you are selling yourself short. But that's not the issue. The issue is that with video editing, the magician does not deceive the audience. That's the guy in the back room editing the video. He does the deception, not the star. So, in that case, the contract is violated.

The whole point to live audience reactions (or what is presented as live audience reactions, at least) is to say clearly that what we see on camera is what we would see in person. That's the message, regardless of how true it is or isn't. If I watch a video and am amazed at the skills of the magician, then later find out that he could not even do what he presented, I have been lied to. The nature of the deception in question makes a huge difference.

-Patrick
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THAT sums it up, for me, too!

Thanks Patrick!
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RowB
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I'm anti editing. It removes from the hard work.
jacobsw
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Quote:
On Apr 6, 2017, Mr. Woolery wrote:
The issue is that with video editing, the magician does not deceive the audience. That's the guy in the back room editing the video. He does the deception, not the star. So, in that case, the contract is violated.


If the magician does the editing, does that change things?

And as another thought experiment, if a magician in a stage show has an offstage assistant who makes the trick possible (and perhaps even does most of the work), is the magician a fraud? If a stage trick only works when the lighting guy gets the lights exactly right, is the magician a fraud?

Unless you invent your own tricks from scratch, and build all your own props, any magic performance is a collaboration.
Terrible Wizard
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Jacob, in thinking about your thought experiment I agree that all (most?) magic is collaborative - even if you did design your trick and props entirely from scratch, you still need an audience.

However, I don't think such a thing would affect my opinion on edited TV magic. The awareness of editing and camera trickery utterly reduces my ability to enjoy and engage with the 'magic', which I see as a performing art and thus difficult enough to capture on camera without the involvement of editing (can you imagine watching a juggler on TV where the balls had been added by cgi? Or a televised race where the winner only appeared to win because of editing, but in reality came last?)
danaruns
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Part of it, for me, is that video is intended to record and preserve a magic performance, not falsely create the appearance of one that never occurred. Absolutely anything is possible with video technology, but none of it is magic.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
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