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thomasR Inner circle 1189 Posts 
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On Mar 21, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote: Yes. And 99% of coaches say they are the 1%! Ha! |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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On Mar 21, 2017, thomasR wrote: Oh my yes a nice addition!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Keith Raygor Special user Naples, FL 968 Posts
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On Mar 20, 2017, RobertSmith wrote: Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote: Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote: Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, thomasR wrote: I think I got this. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10619 Posts
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I'm betting you actually don't.
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lou serrano Special user Los Angeles, CA 671 Posts
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On Mar 18, 2017, thomasR wrote: I was thinking about this comment, and trying to figure out why it wasn't sitting well with me, and then it hit me. I recently had a conversation with someone who's 5-day conference I'll be attending later this year, and he gave me an analogy to think about. This is the way he put it: His wife makes the best apple pie. It's so good that people often ask for her recipe. Once they have the recipe they start gathering the ingredients, but instead of using a particular brand of crust they decide to use a different brand, and instead of using real sugar they decide to use an artificial sweetener, and instead of baking the pie for an hour they bake it for 45 minutes. Once the pie is finished they wonder why the pie doesn't taste the same.The answer is that they changed the recipe. The same can apply to having multiple consultants. You're not following any particular recipe. You're mixing and matching, and the result is something completely different from what any of the consultants were trying to help you achieve. The result might be better, or it might be worse. I'm not saying that it's a bad way of doing things, but it's certainly something to consider. One final thought: If one is just learning to bake, it's probably best to stick with the recipe. If you're already an expert chef, then experimentation can be a wonderful thing. Respectfully, Lou serrano |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10619 Posts
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I also think there are many layers and levels to this which many fail to recognize or understand. Some learn and work better in a group setting, others prefer one on one. In a group setting some eat up the "interaction exercises with those around you" type of stuff (turn to the person next to you, behind you, and ...), others despise this, some prefer to read, some prefer to watch video, some need to see examples, others don't and would rather see/use it as applied to their own as the example, some prefer step by step instruction, others prefer to get a more complete understanding and figure the implementation as it best fits them, some learn by a definitive text or curriculum while others prefer more in-depth analysis and discussion leading to self-application.
Same for when it comes to books or manuals, some begin by looking at the last page to see how long it is, then as they read or progress through it their inner-dialog is "I'm a 1/4 of the way through it", "now I'm halfway through it", and "only 35 more pages to go." Getting to the end is all that matters and in the shortest time possible, others prefer to be much more thorough and digest every nugget and morsel completely with a full understanding and applicable plan as it applies directly to themselves. While yet others first want to read through it, then plan on immediately going through it a second and perhaps third time more thoroughly. How people want, desire and respond to learning, education, implementation and information in general varies completely from person to person. Coaching is and should be a very personal experience. Same for content. It is also much more than just coaching as for many it is the mentoring that is also extremely beneficial. Having direct access to a wealth of someone's knowledge is priceless. Those that were lucky enough to come up with mentors know exactly what I'm talking about, others can only imagine or try to understand. Most information available is for a specific approach, from a specific person for a specific discipline. This is incredibly limiting as far as content, expected results and actual results. There is much more to this including the deeper levels of psychology for one to be productive and successful. Anything else is typically general information which to me has minimal value and limited results. I can't tell you how many I have worked with have said "wow, there is far more to being a successful performer or running an entertainment business that I would have ever imagined." Breaking incorrect perceptions and poor habits and beliefs is only the beginning. As is teaching the concept of operating from the sole perspective of honesty and reality. |
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thomasR Inner circle 1189 Posts
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Lou, I do understand what you are saying and it makes some sense. I'm more of the type who would look up good recipes, both free and paid, and then research the best apples in my area, and then based on several recipes try to bake an apple pie that is perfect for me in my current location, season, etc.
And at any point... I can call or email a pastry chef and ask questions or advice. |
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Tim Friday Elite user 485 Posts
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Guys I think many of you are over analyzing the concept of coaching. If you want a coach who has your exact same situation, you may never find one. So far I have had two different coaches and both of them are in very different locations and markets than I am, yet I have still learned a lot from them.
When I get a coach I come from the place of the student, to figure out what I can learn rather than point out how their business is different from mine. I wonder, to those who are taking an oppositional stance to coaching in this thread - have you ever had a coach for your business? |
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thomasR Inner circle 1189 Posts
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No I haven't had a coach, nor do I ever intend to hire one. I would absolutely hire someone for consultations... And maybe that would even turn into something that resembled coaching.
Tim... Maybe you can speak on what specifically your coaches did for you? what did a coach help you accomplish and do you think you could have accomplised that without his or her help and why or why not? |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts
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Taking smart risks is one thing I have tried to hold myself to. I recall four years ago in The Little Darlings section The Great Zucchini offered to have anyone come see a few of his performances and join him for dinner at no expense, no strings attached. He had reported to perform about 500 shows a year, most for his asking price of $350. What ensued on the Café was typical actions of performers calling him out, doubting his claims and such. My brother and I contacted him, jumped in our cars and headed 7 hours to Washington to take him up on the offer. That weekend we learned first hand about how to apply the law of scarcity, target market, show create, control audiences, set customer expectations and a whole lot more. Oh, and one other thing...we also received the necessary contacts to apply for performing at The White House Easter Egg Roll. As we drove back home we were wondering how many children's performers might live in a 7 hour radius of Washington that chose to believe he (Zucchini) wasn't worth their time.
I share this because here again we have a senario where Mindpro has posted content numerous times at length that for all the world seems like he sure knows of what he speaks. In this thread alone is pure gold for those willing to digest his offering. Yet, we have the doubters and ones who want to see more. My brother, I'm sure, did not mean for this thread to be a infomercial for Mindpro, but if in sharing my perspective on it seems like it is, so be it. Mindpro's intro offer was the cost of a new prop and a four hour investment of time. With as much exposure we have to his body of work it is a no brainer for those who are serious and in need of assistance either setting or achieving their career ambitions. It is a smart risk, there is just no other way to say it. That is not to say that it would necessarily benefit everyone, or that one might be better off pursuing Lou's offering (or others) and taking a smart risk on that. I am simply saying that many performers would benefit from expanding their horizons. I |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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Never had a coach. Never will.
I have had many mentors. Never ever had anyone feel the need to charge me for information. All I had to be was willing to actually listen.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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thomasR Inner circle 1189 Posts
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You pretty much just proved my point exactly... for a 7 hour drive you got a lot of value that was directly applicable to your specific type of performance. That seems to be way more value than paying a coach on a monthly basis.
As for MindPro specifically... he seems to be an expert at acting like he's an expert online. That's about all I know about him. I've never seen anyone want to hide their identity so much online... but I don't know.. maybe in reality he's David Copperfield? I'm not saying I doubt any of his claims, but I have no reason to believe them either. Comparing him to the Great Zuchini seems odd.. I can look up Zuchinis website and see that he is a regular performer with lots of shows booked. I can see what he looks like, how he talks, the venues he performs in, etc. My thoughts on coaching are all general thoughts... not aimed at MindPro. I'm sure he's as good of a coach as most. |
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cafecheckers Regular user 126 Posts
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Danny- ironically, one of the things I spoke with Mindpro about last week was your rich experience getting to learn from the famous Chicago Bar Magic Scene and working at magic shops gaining invaluable entertainment experience. Times have changed. Shops are closed, few attend magic clubs, so getting to know mentors on that level seems less likely in today's world. The trade off is that there is way more connectivity on a broader sense today from internet connections like we have here. I would think the concept of paying and charging for information is the cultural norm today as well. Wether it is downloads, lectures, conferences or coaching - my generation is accustomed to paying for it. In reality, it is probably your generation that never had to pay for such information that the prices charged today for such content remain relatively low.
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cafecheckers Regular user 126 Posts
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ThomasR, You are assuming that the discussions I have with Mindpro regard the type of performance I currently have. I can assure you, they are not. Just because we received an offer from Zucchini that fulfilled many our needs at that time, does not mean other learning interactions are not valuable. If Mindpro were David Copperfield, he would probably not be able to guide me on my path with the same value Mindpro likely will bring.
Regarding assesing Zucchini's validity, hind site is 20/20. He had all that information on display 4 years ago, he also had articles in the Washington Post detailing his unique approach - never the less the doubters were numerous and vocal. Somewhere the threads still exist. People/Coaches are not always as they appear. Look at Joe Paterno. At some point you have to decide if you trust your instincts and make a move on things. |
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Keith Raygor Special user Naples, FL 968 Posts
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On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote: So, specifice information for a specific discipline is incredibly limiting on results. And, anything besides the deeper levels of psychology (and more) is typically general information - which has minimal value and limited results. Which is it? Or is it both? More of the same, embedded in long paragraphs by an anonymous poster. If there's an exchange of money involved, I'd go for someone with experience in the field I want to excel in, and an available track record. I don't have anything to sell here, combined with a lifetime of experience in these very topics; it's easy to separate the wheat from the chaff. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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On Mar 22, 2017, Keith Raygor wrote: You just can't wait to attack him can you? What is the basis of your problem exactly?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Keith Raygor Special user Naples, FL 968 Posts
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If you saw that as an attack, then you're already biased, and there's no point in explaining to you (again) the reasons I question Mindpro's advice.
The content, Danny, the content. Read what I wrote again, and respond to THAT, instead of veering off into mischaracterizing the very plain speech in my post, and trying to make it personal. It's not. |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts
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[quote]On Mar 22, 2017, Keith Raygor wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote: Quote:
So, specifice information for a specific discipline is incredibly limiting on results. When I read this, I thought of it this way. If a carpenter inquired from a coach/mentor "which hammer is optimal for the job am am doing? Providing the answer directly and pointing the individual in the direction on where to obtain such a hammer will carry the carpenter through on that particular project, but will not serve to address the broader based concern, which is that the student likely knows little about how and why hammers are designed with subtle differences from to another in the way they are constructed to provide optimal results across a wide array of possible applications. Teaching about this in a technique that both engagies and ensures the lesson is retained by the student requires a different and more specialized skill set. Additionally, there are of course other tools besides hammers that might be preferable for some of the jobs one is considering using a hammer for. They not only need to know about such tools, but they need to know the advantages and disadvantages to make an informed decision and truly grow in their craft in a meaningful way. Entertaining is much more complicated than this example, because it involves the complexities of human interaction. Entertainment business includes entertainment, and a whole lot more. |
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thomasR Inner circle 1189 Posts
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Carpenters buying hammers.. Chefs baking pies...
If 2 trains depart Chicago at the same time, one with a coach, and one without a coach which will arrive at the destination on time? The coach will inspire the train engineer to head for the mountains, the sky is the limit! And just think.. after driving a train through the mountains you will have excellent train handling skills! Meanwhile the engineer without a coach takes the easy path across the plains.. it's less inspirational (no mountain views after all!) but allows for faster average speeds and puts a lot less stress on the engine. I'm not really sure if that makes sense or not but if hammers and pies can be used.. why not trains! |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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On Mar 22, 2017, thomasR wrote: I am as confused as you are. And since we are not talking about sports or anything but magic I wonder if coaches deprive students of the experience of learning to the detriment of the student? So much is learned from our own mistakes. Why be so afraid to make them?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Posted: Mar 21, 2017 03:33 pm 
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