The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Coaching (40 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3..6..9..12..15..17~18~19~20 [Next]
lou serrano
View Profile
Special user
Los Angeles, CA
661 Posts

Profile of lou serrano
Mindpro,

Before I respond to the other points in your post, what do you know of David's content other than what's on his website?

Lou Serrano
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
8874 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
All I know it that it is more experiential learning with an interactive act-and-do format with several different team members and topics/areas and it is a lot more performance-based than many others. He does work from a theatrical (sometimes over-enthusiastic, over the top) approach to his presentations, which is one of the things I like is he can deliver on both the depth of performance and presentations aspects and the business (also into production). In my other business interests I have, I know him as a speaker and a business expert. We have a similar approach to sales and other aspects as related to the client/customer. His forte is as a trianer. He uses many conventional business techniques and approaches (much like Walter here). He tends to operate in smaller groups which many like if they don't mind doing the work. It isn't the type of learning where you go to watch, observe and just take notes.

I also know that while he has performed for a long time he was primarily a part-time performer being a bit selective, as he still had a corporate job (Sharp Electronics) in addition to his entertainment and speaking. He operates from more of an old-school keynote approach to speaking. I also know him through fellow hypnotist CJ Johnson. He had had about a dozen businesses (that I know of) including a restaurant, theater director, nursing education training, a jewelry business, a health and wellness business (spa) and several out of the country endeavors.

That's about all I really know. Not sure what else you are looking for here.
lou serrano
View Profile
Special user
Los Angeles, CA
661 Posts

Profile of lou serrano
Mindpro,

You are correct in some things and unfortunately incorrect in others. I'm not going to go back and forth with you quibbling about the inaccuracies in your statements.

The biggest issue I have with your posts is that you believe your definition of a "coach" or "coaching" is the only one that is correct in this discussion. In the end, you can call it whatever you like, but none of it matters unless you are providing value to your clients. If your clients are getting the results they seek by hiring you, then fantastic! I'm happy for them and you. If others are getting value from some of the other people mentioned in this thread, what does it matter if it fits your definition? You aren't going to change my mind as to the "coaching" I received, and I'm not going to change yours, so how does this help anyone?

Lou Serrano
Keith Raygor
View Profile
Special user
Naples, FL
922 Posts

Profile of Keith Raygor
Quote:
On Mar 30, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
It has seemed since the beginning there are some (yourself included, Robert, Tom, Keith, CDguy and others) that were having trouble understanding it, so on the heels of Cafécheckers video trying to provide further clarification, my post was intent to expand off of that.


Mindpro,
Thank you for bringing me back into the conversation. It may have "seemed" that way to you, but you are incorrect. I have never had trouble understanding coaching or the topics you're trying to explain. I've only had trouble understanding YOUR posts on the subject since you began setting yourself up as a coach, and selling your ebooks. This is, in part, because you are not a magician, and it's been clear to anyone working professionally as a magician, that you have no experience working or marketing as one. Yet, here you are.

Regarding your statement that "You must move beyond these personal doubts or lack of acceptance that everything I have ever stated, said or claimed here relating to my knowledge, experience and industry positions and status in emphatically, without a doubt, is 100% true. You must get over the fact that because you can't find it on Google that it somehow isn't real or doesn't exist. If anything, this is a great testiment to my system that you can't easily find it.". I would like to explore this further. It's quite a claim.

In this day and age of every small and large business having a presence on the internet, proudly proclaiming that your system doesn't allow people to easily find you, stretches the limits of credibility. Let alone the 100% factor. So . . .
I have an idea that maybe you'll appreciate. It'll put the questions about your knowledge and experience to rest. How about the members of the Café that HAVE found you on Google, post their findings? And let the others in the discussion judge for themselves whether or not everything you have ever stated, said or claimed is 100% true?
charliecheckers
View Profile
Inner circle
1925 Posts

Profile of charliecheckers
This post is offered for those who are following this thread and choose to think strategically and develop their business in new and exciting ways in the pursuit of big dreams. I hope some are at the age I was when I first joined TMC

About five years ago I began to notice that Mindpro’s posts often shared insights on how one could take their business to new heights by thinking in a different and more encompassing way. He demonstrated that he was thinking two, three, four or more steps ahead in the topic at hand. One specific example I can share is when my brother and I had the opportunity to perform during the Easter Egg Roll. While all others congratulated us, Mindpro shared his perspective that participating in the event was the easy part and that to get real and lasting benefit from it required far more understanding and planning. He spoke of business models, press and media optimization strategies and aligned promotional materials. While everyone else was commenting on what occurred, Mindpro was looking far down the road. He has offered similiar perspectives consistently over the years. Most often, his observations are not well received because egos get involved and people become defensive while believing Mindpro is belittling them. Instead, much would be gained by asking Mindpro to elaborate. It is apparent to me, even many times in this thread.

If you read his posts with an open mind it can transform how you approach your business and your life. I am now in medical school and the concepts I learned from Mindpro are applicable here. While most med students look at this as a time to learn to treat patients, I am seeing many more opportunities to develop my medical career. Almost instinctively, I now look at situations with broad context. I consider how I can maximize my opportunities so that 10, 20, 30 years from now I will be gaining from my relationships and experiences. During weekends and breaks, I am meeting with physicians across the country that share unique and entrepreneurial approaches to practicing medicine. I am bringing some of these individuals to my institution as invited speakers. One such individual has developed a lecture on incorporating magic into pediatric medicine. I spent a day with him and incorporated his teachings into my pediatric rotation. It set me apart from all other students.

My brother, likewise is looking far into the future towards his ambitious goals that extend far beyond being a local kids show performer. He has hired Mindpro to help him develop skill sets and understanding. He knows that the more he shares his progress, more will join in supporting him. He has shared this with prominent politicians in our area as well as local business leaders and educators. He shared it here as well. He does this all knowing it makes him vulnerable and susceptible to nay sayers.

The reaction to his video and progress is very telling. Only ThomasR took the time to offer any feedback. In my opinion - on a forum where we are sharing with each other, that is unfortunate. ThomasR questioned the degree to which my brother was receiving benefit from his coach, which is fair in a thread on coaching - but he continually uses the wrong instrument when calibrating progress. He says we will have to wait 5 years to see if it was worth it, like that was unexpected. In fairness to ThomasR, my brother has not presented his business plans here. That is intentional. Never the less, he has been clear that he is embarking on an ambicous endeavor. I have been at arms length through this process and can see the transition my brother has made already.

When I left the day to day operations we went through a difficult time because I was not able to teach my brother all that I was doing to promote the business and more importantly, why. It was discipline and methodology that came easy to me, but was not innate to him. Mindpro worked with him, offering additional materials and tools to build a foundation, while simultaneously moving the business in the desired direction. Today, my brother is bigger and stronger and owes a great deal to the relationship he has with Mindpro.
Gerry Walkowski
View Profile
Inner circle
1383 Posts

Profile of Gerry Walkowski
I have always said that at the end of the day if you personally feel that you benefited from a coach (or a marketing course), and that benefit / new knowledge works for you, then in my opinion that's all that matters.

Gerry
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
8874 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2018, charliecheckers wrote:
If you read his posts with an open mind it can transform how you approach your business and your life. I am now in medical school and the concepts I learned from Mindpro are applicable here. While most med students look at this as a time to learn to treat patients, I am seeing many more opportunities to develop my medical career. Almost instinctively, I now look at situations with broad context. I consider how I can maximize my opportunities so that 10, 20, 30 years from now I will be gaining from my relationships and experiences.

My brother, likewise is looking far into the future towards his ambitious goals that extend far beyond being a local kids show performer. He does this all knowing it makes him vulnerable and susceptible to nay sayers.

The reaction to his video and progress is very telling. Only ThomasR took the time to offer any feedback. In my opinion - on a forum where we are sharing with each other, that is unfortunate. ThomasR questioned the degree to which my brother was receiving benefit from his coach, which is fair in a thread on coaching - but he continually uses the wrong instrument when calibrating progress. He says we will have to wait 5 years to see if it was worth it, like that was unexpected.


When I left the day to day operations we went through a difficult time because I was not able to teach my brother all that I was doing to promote the business and more importantly, why. It was discipline and methodology that came easy to me, but was not innate to him. Mindpro worked with him, offering additional materials and tools to build a foundation, while simultaneously moving the business in the desired direction. Today, my brother is bigger and stronger and owes a great deal to the relationship he has with Mindpro.




There is some great insight in this post both seen and between the lines.

First, let me address something that could help each person here to recognize. In just the opening seconds of Cafécheckers video, you'll notice he addresses his performing as "my business" "the company". This is first and foremost one of the things that I would say 98% of performers do not do. They do not look at or perceive their performing as a business or a company. He and his bother Charliecheckers both had this perspective and understanding firmly in place before I started working with them. This is a huge factor is running a successful performing or entertainment-based business, is doing so from the right understanding and perspective. While some of you may have been focusing on his results and what he was saying about me, I immediately noticed this right away. It stood out to me (I hear all the accolades every day anyways, so it is important to point this out). I work with all kinds of performers and entertainment business owners. Magicians are a unique breed from both the perspective and operational aspects. As pointed out several times by several people, egos are involved probably more (in negative and limiting ways) than any other type of performer or entertainment-based businesses I work with. Consistently.

I think these two observations alone could help greatly improve the business of those 98%.

Secondly, while yes, thomasR could be commended for at least asking questions and seemingly trying to get a perspective and understanding from Cafécheckers, the answers given have been more toward long-term visions and results. Yes, this is an important part of my coaching. One of the things Cafécheckers (and many others have said to me) is "I don't want to be in my 30s, 40, 50, or 60s just scraping by still hustling for my next bookings, and wondering if I can pay my bills this month." I see and hear this sooo often, especially with magicians. Both magicans I coach and the many I have booked over the years. So I show them how to operate in such a manner that in mid to later years, the heavy work has been done and you can live a comfortable, executive lifestyle without the worry or insecurities that most others endure.

With that said, the immediate benefits of coaching are also seeming to be overlooked. I listed 25 benefits that have already been achieved. That 25, yet I could have probably listed 100-150 more as well. So, no, it doesn't take 5, 10 or more years to see the results. I would say he started seeing initial changes and results in a matter of a few weeks, which when broken down comes out to really a matter of hours. Again, he is not specifically mentioning these as they are a given. Knowing these are a given and realized almost immediately, it allows us to focus on the greater picture - this is where sustainable success is created.

Much of this is education to a greater and deeper understanding. Once this occurs as Charliecheckers said, "Almost instinctively, I now look at situations with broad context." I can not tell you how amazing and life-changing it is when this "shift" occurs and becomes your new default position. It alone changes everything. Once this is in place we can have conversations, design strategies and operations that happen on a level others can not understand. That is one of the problems in this thread. He is excitded about all of this, and wants to share it, but it seems no one is able to appreciate or discuss it on the level of reference.

One of the other things I must mention is the awareness that occurs when you do operate from a company and business perspective of being keenly aware of possibilities and opportunities. This whole coaching adventure was because of acting on a created opportunity by Cafécheckers. Back in October of 2016, there was a member here named Marqus. He posted in severe frustration that nothing was working for him in regard to getting bookings, income, and business. He stated hhe was trying everything. He seemed so frustrated and down and out. He seemed to be banging his head against the wall because as literally nothing was happening. It wasn't because he wasn't trying or doing anything, he was. But with no results. Sensing his frustration we conversed by PM. In one post I stated that I was confident that given 30 days I could assist him. I extended a coaching offer to him (and also to one other member who also often seemed quite frustrated - Kameron Messmer). Although neither of the two decided to take me up on the offer, Cafécheckers PM'd me, as did many others asking if they could be considered for the offer and opportunity. I had never done short-term coaching because you can't really get to the nuts and bolts of things. Several explained that just getting into things a bit deeper than we can here, but without agendas, derailments, and close-mindedness, they felt it could still be beneficial. I even received a reply from mentalist great Bob Cassidy a senior member here in the mentalism forums. He told me he started doing short-term coaching for mentalists and that many were finding it very beneficial and that since he agreed, that the magic community (including himself he admitted) were absolutely terrible and missing the boat on the business side of things. So after careful consideration, I decided to accept a handful of short-term, one time only (really, no advertising guru fake-hype call to action) coaching students. It originally was to help a brother in need, and it ended up helping others as well.

That is when I started discussing coaching here more openly. Unlike other perceptions, I do not promote my coaching here (I really don't need to) only to reference it as needed. Prior to this, it was typically only to establish premise or foundation. Cafécheckers should be commended on seeing, creating and capitalizing on such an opportunity. He has never looked back.

Now I get that many do not want to admit weaknesses, inability, or put in the work, and many students do not want to openly discuss or admit that they are getting coaching. To some it's private or others they feel a sense of shame that they need a coach or mentoring. When I worked with the ABC soap opera All My Children, one of our top actresses was getting weekly coaching and continued training. As her agent, I knew it was not to be discussed, which I understood. While she was learning acting and advance work there, I was working with her on the business aspects. In a quick time, I soon found out like 20 or more members of ABC daytime biggest shows casts were all doing the same. Many will not talk about it and share openly, so I think this whole thread and the efforts of Café and Charliecheckers are quite admirable. This thread alone has inspired and motivated several to contact me about their interests based on this current sharing. Just like his posts here are helping others, I get the same feedback daily about my contributions here in Tricky Business. If some are put off by it, oh well, I won't let that stand in the way of others that are here to benefit.

Some great insights here and yes, like Charliecheckers, I hope it can do deeper if for the right reasons.

I think this thread is so revealing and also demonstrates that very few have actually used coaching, let alone broken down and compared coaches for and truly understand the possible benefits. I guess admitting they need help is the first step.


Oh, by the way....Charliecheckers and Cafécheckers....congratulations on getting the White House Easter Egg Roll!
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
19095 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Quote:
On Apr 3, 2018, Gerry Walkowski wrote:
I have always said that at the end of the day if you personally feel that you benefited from a coach (or a marketing course), and that benefit / new knowledge works for you, then in my opinion that's all that matters.

Gerry


I was about to write a long blathering post about this thread, but you have definitely summed it up quite well. Clearly Mr. Checkers has a multitude of benefits he is reaping from the process and others twisting them to pretend he is not is pointless.

In the end it is about the value provided to the CLIENT. Nobody else has a valid opinion really. Ironically enough including you and I LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
charliecheckers
View Profile
Inner circle
1925 Posts

Profile of charliecheckers
Quote:
On Mar 30, 2018, lou serrano wrote:
Pick the right coach. Find someone with a proven track record for success, someone who is also a great coach, and do what they say. If they're the real deal, and you're a good student, you should see tangible results.


Welcome back Danny! I was thinking of you when I read this quote because while I agree with it 100%, you always remind us that not everyone has to be a “good student” to be successful. I know successful entertainers who would not make good students. That being said, each coach is different in their approach, and some have the ability to connect on various levels to provide the appropriate value.
charliecheckers
View Profile
Inner circle
1925 Posts

Profile of charliecheckers
Quote:
On Mar 31, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
Now with that said, all of these are based on an online guru marketing business model I referred to earlier. This is what the online world considers "coaching" these days (life coaches, dating coaches, financial coaches, happiness coaches, etc.), when it really isn't. It's simply limited information and education. If you want to accept that definition, fine. After (or while) you attended these trainings, you may have been offered an upsell or "backend opportunity" of continued training or perhaps "coaching", but that was not what occurred at these limited time events.


Mindpro- from you perspective, what is the the impact of one pursuing “coaching” as you describe above for the purposes mentioned, such as life coach, dating coach, happiness coach - and receiving the services as you describe as an online guru. I would think the stakes are even higher for those in need of help for such essential aspirations.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
19095 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
The problem is fold. One is the misuse of the word coach. Redefining to suit ones needs. Then redefining success instead of getting better.

NO sports coach worth their salt will tell you that "if you're happy that is really all success is". No it is shot setting and ACHIEVING goals, not redefining them so you feel better about failure.

Second is those who fail at life somehow become coaches, or what is becoming called a coach and it is crap. It is so easy to make up fake bs online today and pretend to be successful while living just below your bills. Then spout some guru crap you read on the Internet and instant success coach. Add in just the right amount of desperation from the buyer and enough wanting a short cut and then you have the problem.

Personally, and this is MY viewpoint only and only an opinion, I would find a mentor not a coach. I am in no way saying coaches do not work. I am not saying all are bad. I am not saying Joey doesn't benefit. CLEARLY he has and if you took the time to hear him instead of correct him you would see just how much he has benefited.

It is just not a path I would pursue personally.

But many would not use personal trainers when they can juat go to the gym. I happen to benefit from one. Same thing really.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
8874 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
Quote:
On Apr 18, 2018, charliecheckers wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 31, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
Now with that said, all of these are based on an online guru marketing business model I referred to earlier. This is what the online world considers "coaching" these days (life coaches, dating coaches, financial coaches, happiness coaches, etc.), when it really isn't. It's simply limited information and education. If you want to accept that definition, fine. After (or while) you attended these trainings, you may have been offered an upsell or "backend opportunity" of continued training or perhaps "coaching", but that was not what occurred at these limited time events.


Mindpro- from your perspective, what is the the impact of one pursuing “coaching” as you describe above for the purposes mentioned, such as life coach, dating coach, happiness coach - and receiving the services as you describe as an online guru. I would think the stakes are even higher for those in need of help for such essential aspirations.



As Danny said today's online world and it's spawned gurus adapted it create their own desired meaning. It's much like the rap and hip-hop communities which use words or terms with established longtime meaning and change them to their own specialized meanings. They use them in their songs and culture which appeal to their audience who begins thinking, using and understanding these words to these new meanings, yet having no idea or clue of the real or longtime established meaning.

The impact from one pursuing "coaching" by today's online gurus and specialized "coaching" (dating, pick-up artists, life coaches, happiness coaches, chakra coaches, etc.) is that the online world has accepted this new definition and positioning. In these types of "coaching," they are really only teaching specified information in one specific area - dating, pick-ups, happiness, etc., which is why I said they are more education on a specific topic or area offered and accepted under the term "coaching." Many of these offer limited information and education, based on usually a sole or specific approach, belief or method.

This has created an online business model that they all use with promises of online, easy wealth or success - the actual purpose and intent of these "coachings", not to actually help people with the desired outcome.

The impact is first confusion followed closely by false belief of the supposed or promised results with many of these. You are usually learning one person's approach or belief. An entire online campaign is presented trying to position their belief as what is missing from your life or success, and their belief is what you need to achieve what you think you want or need. They have the missing piece, they have the solution you are seeking!

I am in the middle of working on another project. In doing so I have gone back over the last two years of what the gurus offer and tell you that you need for success. I stopped at 100 different things that entertainments and business owners are being told that they need for success. 100 is where I stopped there could have easily been double that amount if I kept on going. They will tell you need specified courses or training on SEO, Copywriting, Email Mastery, Adwords, Auto-Responders, Lead Pages, Landing Pages, List-Building, Lead Magnets, Social Media Mastery, Facebook, Facebook Ads, Facebook Live,
LinkedIn, YouTube, Viral Videos, Camtasia, Videos & Vlogs, Blogs, Sales Letters, Content Creation, USPs, Elevator Pitches, Newsletters, Self-Publishing, Podcasts, Webinars, Affiliates/Joint Ventures, ...and oh yeah, online marketing itself!!!

If you listen to these gurus, you need all of these things to succeed. This is absolutely crazy. But because (as we see here from so many) if it says so on the internet, it is real! (and heaven forbid if it's not on the internet, it can't be real!)

So the impact is a bunch of people falsely believing that they need things they don't and that "this" is the magical missing piece that will deliver or better position themsleves for success. Well, I'm the big bad, mean guy (the messenger that everyone loves to hate) that tells everyone you don't.

Let's look at some real facts here. For years, decades, generations, many people have been extremely successful without ANY of these. Without the online world at all. The online guys are the ones that said you need a website to succeed and be relevant in today's world. (Many successful entertainers and businesses I know still do not have a website!). So everyone went out paid for a website or webpage and now their stuff was out there for THE ENTIRE WORLD TO SEE and access. Guess what...it made little or no difference. None at all for most. So then they were told, having one is not enough, you need to optimize it and another guru(s) will show you just how to do that. Then, of course, that alone isn't enough you now need to have it created a specific way for best results, then you are told after all of that that most people don't visit your website on a computer but rather a mobile device so you need a mobile website now as well. All of this with the result ending in have a very plain, antiseptic-looking scroll website with absolutely no personality at all, but hey, it aligns perfectly with all of the algorithms needed, so it must be great.

The impact is they have created a world of their own beliefs and are now, through the online world, marketing this as the way business works and is done today.

Yet, in reality, most of it isn't true at all and not truly necessary. So the false perception and belief being perpetuated is really the greatest impact.

They prey on the weak, gullible and misinformed (or uninformed). Those that believe "the others are doing it, so I should be too." Of course, all of it is subjective and comes with no real guarantee.

You do not need a happiness coach to be happy. It can be done without an online guru as it has for 1000s of years. If you are having trouble dating, using someone else's tips or methods probably isn't really going to help you much. This problem exists for a deeper or other reason, not typically lack of knowledge or skill. Also, another person's way likely will not work for you.

So I think the misbelief and false hope that comes out of it is the worst element. I can't tell you how may coaching students and consulting clients I get that have taken all the other entertainment trianings and are no better or only minorly better off. They are coming to me because they still know it isn't helping them and that they still haven't succeeded. They know they need to learn more than what they know or are doing.

These "coaches" are not coaching anyone, just simply teaching and offering their own limited beliefs and information on their own personal limited success, which they position as a niche. The entire premise really is stacked against the student/client. This is why I said above these aren't really coaches or mentors in the true complete sense. There is a much greater, all-encompassing world that likely needs to be conveyed, learned and implemented. I rarely see a person who is missing only "that one single element" that will get them the success they desire.

The problem is very few if any of these gurus and coaches themselves know this greater picture. Take a topic for entertainers - like 2/4 walling. Who is offering this information? Performers that have or are 2/4walling. All they are teaching is what they did or are doing. They usually (and often admittedly) entered into doing it blindly themselves. I have yet seen a single "coach" that truly knows all aspects and the 5 main income resources for 2/4 walling and ALL the elements that should be learned and understood and be in place BEFORE ever trying to execute one. I've never seen one person yet offer information on all aspects from all perspectives and parties involved. Just theirs. Why? Because of their own limited knowledge. Have they held positions in the industry that have allowed them the knowledge and experience on all facets of this? No, yet they are still teaching as an authority or coach.

They are claiming to be an authority or expert in something they are not. So because of the many pseudo or self-proclaimed experts, the term "expert" like the term "coaching" today has taken a different meaning. Anyone today can become an "expert" it seems just by self-proclamation. It also makes it extremely difficult for the uninformed and aware consumer/customer to separate true experts and authorities (and their actual true content and information) from today's boasting fake-experts.

As an off-shoot, as we see here regularly in almost every thread, it has also created a sub-area of doubters as well, many who would rather believe the slick online BS material that is packaged and positioned for online sales, than actual true, legitimate and time-tested experts and content.

So using (according to) the current "coaching" landscape, we all need coaching in every areas of our personal and professional lives which would take decades and hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions. And of course, we'd all die before ever getting there.

I just spoke at an entrepreneur convention two weeks ago in California. The criteria was no tech involved. The topic was how to make $10,000 a month consistently without any of the tech or guru/coaches wares. They based the model on my beliefs and longtime all-encompassing system. It was the most eye-opening reaction from an audience I have ever seen. Once all of this is in place and established, you can, of course, add a website, social media, online marketing and any tech you want, but again, it is not necessary at all.

Also, it was so nice having all of that removed from our minds for the weekend. No thoughts about what they didn't know, didn't have or things that they thought (because they were told by the online gurus) were preventing their success and holding them back.

Now I have no problem with these "coaches" doing their thing, as long as it is understood in the proper perspective and context (which it almost always is not). I wish they be intelligent enough to come up with their own terms rather than taint the words coach and expert. It's the misleading and unethical positioning that is so common (because they all follow the same create, launch and execution formula....of course until the next big guru comes along with something new!)

Yes, the old adage of those that can't - teach, seems to be the same with today's "coaches." I see it every day, coaches that aren't even doing what they "coach" or teach. Coaches, that wouldn't be considered "successful" by most of our definitions.
thomasR
View Profile
Special user
590 Posts

Profile of thomasR
Very very good points in the post above.

The 2 walling / 4 walling is such an interesting topic, I wish there was more complete info out there about it.
While they might not have all the answers, I would love to read a course or hear a full business lecture from Steve Cohen or Dennis Watkins. They seemed to have figured out some ways to make it work in 2 rather difficult and competive entertainment markets.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
19095 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
They have. And as such don't really need to be gurus.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
8874 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
Quote:
On Apr 19, 2018, thomasR wrote:
Very very good points in the post above.

The 2 walling / 4 walling is such an interesting topic, I wish there was more complete info out there about it.
While they might not have all the answers, I would love to read a course or hear a full business lecture from Steve Cohen or Dennis Watkins. They seemed to have figured out some ways to make it work in 2 rather difficult and competive entertainment markets.


I agree, but both of these guys would likely tell you they too haven't got the topic of 2/4 Wall figured out, only what they have learned and has worked for them. I know for a fact they are not doing or seem to not know the elements I referred to above, but have found what works for them in their market, venue, and capacity. So while what they could offer could be valuable to someone, it probably wouldn't be training or the methods others could use for their own success. This is likely why they haven't released much on the topic. Even when they speak about it much is limited and often will claim it was just a trial and error process for them as well. I have heard Steve say this several times.

As an example, there was one guy who many around here were praising for the info he had released on 2/4 walling a few years ago, proclaiming he was the "expert" and everyone here boasted he offered some "great information" and had the answers, yet the very guy has been struggling terribly to follow his own advice and information to get his own show/venue for the past couple of years himself. Again, it wasn't because he was teaching a real system of information, just something limited that he stumbled into that had worked for him on a very minimal basis.

Most that could offer "a course or hear a full business lecture" on the topic are those that have failed miserably and almost assuredly lost some decent money in the learning process, and it would likely be something they wouldn't want to relive again or share as it would mean rehashing mistakes, their own lack of information, choices, and the unknown elements they had to learn the hard way. The ones that you really want to hear from that experienced this, learned from the mistakes then endured and prevailed, are very rarely willing to talk, and if they do, usually aren't willing to share all their information of such value for limited benefit.
thomasR
View Profile
Special user
590 Posts

Profile of thomasR
"I agree, but both of these guys would likely tell you they too haven't got the topic of 2/4 Wall figured out, only what they have learned and has worked for them. I know for a fact they are not doing or seem to not know the elements I referred to above, but have found what works for them in their market, venue, and capacity. So while what they could offer could be valuable to someone, it probably wouldn't be training or the methods others could use for their own success. "

So do you think Cohen and Watkins are missing out by not knowing the "elements you referred to"?

Is there anyone in the entertainment industry that hasn't "failed miserably" at some point in their career?
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
19095 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Almost nobody in this industry admits failure of any kind. It is all amazing results or excuses. Few admit failure, especially here on this board.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
charliecheckers
View Profile
Inner circle
1925 Posts

Profile of charliecheckers
Quote:
On Jun 11, 2018, thomasR wrote:
So do you think Cohen and Watkins are missing out by not knowing the "elements you referred to"?

I think the point Mindpro was making isn’t so much that Cohen and Watkins are missing out by not knowing the elements, but rather those who would try to replicate their success would be the ones who would likely suffer. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses and very successful people are sometimes able to overcome foundational shortcomings due to extreme talent or fortunate personal circumstances that are not predictably reproducible.
thomasR
View Profile
Special user
590 Posts

Profile of thomasR
I don't think any results in the entertainment industry are predictably reproducible.

I think anyone who's thought of 4-walling a show would find value in a course, business bio, lecture, etc. from Cohen or Watkins. Does not mean I think they have all the answers. Also doesn't mean I think either of them have a magic blue print that will work for everyone. But I think the average person would be able to scale what worked for Cohen and Watkins into their market.

I'm pretty sure Mindpro was referring to Bill Gladwell. I got value from his online talks. Just because he doesn't know everything doesn't mean I can't learn from what has worked, and now what hasn't worked from him. I thought he was quite honest on his follow up talk about how certain things that worked in Gatlinburg didn't work for him in other markets.

Danny have you 4-walled some shows before? I should maybe add you to the list!
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
8874 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
Quote:
On Jun 11, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Few admit failure, especially here on this board.



Man, this is one of the mos true statements offered on this board. I remember a couple of years ago when you actually tried to start a thread about this and few chose to participate. I am a firm believer that we can learn so much from others mistakes, setbacks, and experiences.

As far as "So do you think Cohen and Watkins are missing out by not knowing the "elements you referred to"? I think they know what they have done, in their own market, in their own venue, in their own situation, but not many other aspects of 2/4 walling - just what they've experienced. While I would need to know their entire deal and arrangement (which they and most aren't willing to share, which is understandable) to reveal in detail, they probably have income from some kind of split or guarantee, and maybe some BOR, but that is likely about it. Sure they may also get other bookings out of it, but that really isn't likely part of their deals except for possible referrals by the venue.

There are many other possible profit centers and income resources in a 2/4 wall deal that are rarely discussed and likely unknown to many including even those doing it. I know the guy that I referred to above doesn't have a clue, as I said, most don't.

I recently spoke to a famous comedian that has 2/4 four-walled in Las Vegas for over a decade and when he asked me about his, he admitted he had no clue about these and that how it could've made his decade much less risky and more profitable.

As for are they are missing this? Probably not as far as they will think as it is hard to miss something you don't know. Also, I don't claim to know their individual interests, experience and desired outcomes that they are seeking. It is easy for others to think it is the same as yours, but more times than not, it may not be and may not be the same as others. Most think of 2/4 wall deals only in the context of having their own residency show and income from it, but in reality, there are many other reasons, purposes, business models and desired outcomes that are possible.

Most fail miserably only because they lack knowledge, information, and experience. This often prevents miserable failure and reduce such from happening. I do think many go into such deals without knowledge or education, most with minimal knowledge. A 3/4 wall deal is a business. It's hard to fathom someone going into a business without any knowledge or experience, yet we do see it all the time in the bar, restaurant, and other industries. The point is most don't look at this as a business venture, bit rather a self-produced booking.

The other point is, to the point Cafécheckers was making, is even if these guys openly revealed everything they know and have learned and how they did it, others in the magic community would then think all they have to do is follow their details and steps and the same will happen for them. This is how so much in the magic community works, when in reality learning their knowledge and details in no way assures you (anyone) for the same results. There are many factors, sometimes unique factors (The Waldorf Hotel!) that would never be the same for you (anyone) attempting to do the same.

This is the problem I have with guys that share "their story", "their experience" or "how they did it" as it is nothing more than their personal limited experience. It is incomplete to the overall greater picture on the topic. Now, of course, you have to know this to realize this. I think some of these types of guys realize this which is why they don't lecture in great detail or release anything on it.

Actually, it was Danny's bad 4-wall experience a major loss, combined with his direct, honest (whether people here like to hear it or not) perspectives in his posts and contributions here, from the real world front lines, that first connected us (not to mention I was aware of him for years because of working in the same circles/markets and his submissions to my agencies). When I was taking one of my shows to Branson and negotiating the deal, he was one of the first industry professionals I reached out to.

Of course, we have both done 2/4 wall deals, why else would be be talking about them and having such insight?
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Coaching (40 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3..6..9..12..15..17~18~19~20 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2018 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.55 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL