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Mindpro
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Quote:
On Mar 24, 2017, lou serrano wrote:
I don't know why I even bother chiming in anymore. It's time for me to once again take a sabbatical.


That's because the affiliate offer ends today. (Oops it was extended for 24 hours so you'll have to hang in here one more day, lol.)
TomBoleware
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Most of the guarantees there read like this:

“We Guarantee to get results, and that you’ll be able to “Find our Fee” in your business within 17-weeks of ActionCOACH coaching your company … or your coaching is FREE.”

“We guarantee – in WRITING – that the program will pay for itself 200% within the first 12 months of working together or you’ll get a full, complete, and TOTAL refund!”


Sounds like results or money back to me.


Tom
Take care and by all means, stay inspired.
Mindpro
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On Mar 24, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 20, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Oh, there's that and 99.99999% of what any magic "coach" could tell you can be found for free searching the Café or even this cool new website called Google.

-Robert


I think this is an opinion or perception of someone who truly doesn't understand or has not experienced working with a coach. While I am not a "magic coach" I work with many magicians and I can assure you 95% of my core content will not be found from a Google search and most not previously published or available elsewhere.


So, what? You're like some sage who discovered a secret that no one else has?


Quite frankly, yes, lol. Since I have been told I am the only member in all of he Café that has professional industry experience and success in all six areas of the entertainment industry, I would say that to be true. Which is also why I am extremely selective with whom I share this experience and knowledge. Trust me, and feel free to ask any of my students and clients, you will not find it on Google and in all my years here much of it has never been discussed unless I bring a small bit of it into the discussion. Its only secret when you don't know it. You don't know what you don't know.
WDavis
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Tom,

Your guarantee is actually a clever marketing ploy to promote a protection against lawsuits as a client benefit. The majority of state courts will honor that guarantee/clause as a cap against losses.

To bring this thread back on to a discussion of coaches and experiences using them. In the small business advisory perspective, Mindpro states briefly, but in actuality is a significant factor, business psychiatrist. I've always refered to it as a marriage counselor. It is significant enough for the SME market, I feel it bears repeating.

Additionally, I personally wouldn't hire a coach, under retainer, for general purpose help over my business needs. I feel that's a waste of resources for the business owner that benefits the coach. I find coaching is effective when used in staff/individual training in a specific matter. Done this way it is usually acheaper and more effective use of business assets. Finally, all coaches and businesses need to interview eachother to see if there is a fit-both technically and psychologically. I have no qualms turning down a prospect because I didn't like them or their business model and other times because I didn't have the skillset needed to satisfy their need.
cafecheckers
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A few thoughts to add:

Coaching- I learned a lot from this thread with respect to how the term "coach" can mean different things to different people. Probably much in the same way the term "magician" might conjure up diverse ranges within the term. For me, I did not get hung up on the term because I knew with a high degree of certainty what services I was going to receive from Mindpro. If I was google searching for such services, the terms might be more important. Mindpro offers much more than "coaching" in the narrow interpretation of the term. In fact he offers all the associated services people discussed here. That was not surprising to me, given his posts here over the years as well as the description in his terms for the two agreements I made with him. Likewise, I believe I have a good idea what Lou and others here are offering. Therefore the exact term used was not as important.

Phil Jackson - that is a great example of someone who draws the best from players more talented than he is. He puts them in positions to win. He does not simply show people what he did to be a successful player. It doesn't always work out, as the article points out, but that is what I seek in a coach.

Lou - just the other day you were posting here trying to have some fun at my brother's expense ("I'm confused as well. I'm wondering what would happen if the coach riding a train was also a chef?" Lou Serrano) Now you are leaving this thread and Tricky Business because the quality is not up to your standards? Wow! It really makes me wonder if there is not some truth to what Mindpro posted at the top of this page.

Rather than get caught up on terms, maybe a discussion on ways one can go about expanding their universe of knowledge (getting to "know what you don't know") as well as ways to learn from others would achieve more. Mentoring has been discussed - advice on that topic would be welcome. Likewise, if people have worked with consultants.
thomasR
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Hey now... if anyone gets the credit / blame for making the train joke it's me!

And to take your advice and get back on topic... Mentors. I did have a mentor when I started my entertainment business (about 10 years ago). He was the owner of several music festivals, and managed bands and artists out of Nashville. I started my company in order to produce theatrical circus / variety shows.. (the dream was to create a modern take on a traveling vaudeville show.. the reality... I self promoted and lost money on theatre shows and got booked mostly by cities for various festivals in their downtowns and parks. A few school and college shows, a few company picnics / conferences.).

Back to mentors... While my mentor did not have experience in circus or theatrical shows... He had years and years of experience in managing national touring acts, and booking acts and finding buyers / sponsors for festivals and events. He was able to give me very realistic advice on what to expect, and what to not expect when just starting out.

I've never hired a consultant, but I would be open to that in the right situation.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Mar 24, 2017, WDavis wrote:

To bring this thread back on to a discussion of coaches and experiences using them. In the small business advisory perspective, Mindpro states briefly, but in actuality is a significant factor, business psychiatrist. I've always referred to it as a marriage counselor. It is significant enough for the SME market, I feel it bears repeating.


Yes, this is very true and a very strong part of it. I didn't mean to downplay it, I just figured many wouldn't truly understand it to the degree it truly exists (or would twist it away from its original intent and meaning). It is a huge part of almost every one of my students and clients' relationships. Relationships, is also a huge part of this as well. These two very much go hand in hand. Well stated.
TomBoleware
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WDavis, you are absolutely right that the guarantee is sometimes used as a clever marketing tool.
But some offer it because they simply believe in their product and are able to deliver what they promise.

Still that does not change the FACT that many do indeed offer a guarantee. I just wanted to clear up what
Danny said and insists that NOBODY offers a guarantee. It's clear he has no idea what he is talking about
and just wants to disagree on this.

So I won't ask mindpro again about his guarantee because it's clear that he does not guarantee his work.

Anyways,

Tom
Take care and by all means, stay inspired.
Dannydoyle
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For the reasons in that article it is STUPID to guarantee results and as has been pointed out is marketing to people and nothing more. Much the same way that multi level marketing sells poisin or lie about how effective it is.

Anyways.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RobertSmith
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Quote:
On Mar 24, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 24, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 20, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Oh, there's that and 99.99999% of what any magic "coach" could tell you can be found for free searching the Café or even this cool new website called Google.

-Robert


I think this is an opinion or perception of someone who truly doesn't understand or has not experienced working with a coach. While I am not a "magic coach" I work with many magicians and I can assure you 95% of my core content will not be found from a Google search and most not previously published or available elsewhere.


So, what? You're like some sage who discovered a secret that no one else has?


Quite frankly, yes, lol. Since I have been told I am the only member in all of he Café that has professional industry experience and success in all six areas of the entertainment industry, I would say that to be true. Which is also why I am extremely selective with whom I share this experience and knowledge. Trust me, and feel free to ask any of my students and clients, you will not find it on Google and in all my years here much of it has never been discussed unless I bring a small bit of it into the discussion. Its only secret when you don't know it. You don't know what you don't know.



"Trust me," says the anonymous source.

You do you.
TomBoleware
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To be clear about the guarantee thing, I’m not saying everyone should or should not offer one. Simply pointing out that many selling to those that don’t know them do offer some type of guarantee.

Now if you only selling to those few that know you then you probably don’t need one. That is, if they already trust you. It’s all about trust. But if you are putting yourself out there to everyone, especially on the internet, or hiding your real name, you have to win that trust. A guarantee will certainly help ease the mind of strangers.


Tom
Take care and by all means, stay inspired.
Dannydoyle
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You just keep beating that same drum don't you?

It is sad.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
cafecheckers
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Quote:
On Mar 24, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Oh, there's that and 99.99999% of what any magic "coach" could tell you can be found for free searching the Café or even this cool new website called Google.
-Robert

Quote:
I think this is an opinion or perception of someone who truly doesn't understand or has not experienced working with a coach. While I am not a "magic coach" I work with many magicians and I can assure you 95% of my core content will not be found from a Google search and most not previously published or available elsewhere.

Quote:
So, what? You're like some sage who discovered a secret that no one else has?


I just watched two of Robert Smith's vlogs on the Fair Market. I found both of them to be very informative - saving viewers potential time and money if pursuing the Fair Market, provide advice he accumulated through personal experience, and offer insights that expend one's mind on ways to approach the markets they serve or hope to one day serve. It made the exchange above seem odd though. If 99.99999% of information is free and easy to find, why the need for his vlogs? He mentioned in one vlog I viewed that his offering is that from a performers perspective - what if he also had experience hiring acts for fairs? Would his vlogs offer differing or additional advice? He shared that it took him years to know the proper way to approach the Fair Market - why, if it is true that the necessary information is so available?

Consider someone in my situation, that has a lifetime of a career ahead of me - not sure exactly what direction to go, and wanting to explore the possibilities in a way that is best linked to my skill sets, ambitions, life style choices, financial desires and such. Doesn't it make sense for me to seek assistance from one who is willing to know me, understand me and draw upon a diverse body of experience and knowledge to guide me?
Dannydoyle
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Yea, no.

I see what you are getting at and on the surface it makes sense. BUT again does it not rob you of actually learning? Is being told something the same as "learning" it?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RobertSmith
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On Mar 26, 2017, Cafécheckers wrote:

I just watched two of Robert Smith's vlogs on the Fair Market. I found both of them to be very informative - saving viewers potential time and money if pursuing the Fair Market, provide advice he accumulated through personal experience, and offer insights that expend one's mind on ways to approach the markets they serve or hope to one day serve. It made the exchange above seem odd though. If 99.99999% of information is free and easy to find, why the need for his vlogs? He mentioned in one vlog I viewed that his offering is that from a performers perspective - what if he also had experience hiring acts for fairs? Would his vlogs offer differing or additional advice? He shared that it took him years to know the proper way to approach the Fair Market - why, if it is true that the necessary information is so available?

Consider someone in my situation, that has a lifetime of a career ahead of me - not sure exactly what direction to go, and wanting to explore the possibilities in a way that is best linked to my skill sets, ambitions, life style choices, financial desires and such. Doesn't it make sense for me to seek assistance from one who is willing to know me, understand me and draw upon a diverse body of experience and knowledge to guide me?


Great points.

Here's some clarification and thoughts to consider.

Every single platform you use on a daily basis, was born inside of the last 10 years. Was the information I needed available then? Yes. But it was much more difficult to get to. Back then I allowed myself to be seduced by convincing sales letters written by some "guru" for a program promising to have clients cramming money into your pockets. Only later did I find out that many of these people selling school show courses, corporate magic courses etc etc, started selling a course for $497 or $97 or $77 or whatever, after having done all of 10-20 shows.

That was the point of me saying...

Quote:
RobertSmith, Mar 20, 2017 09:39pm
Are there viable coaches? Sure. But I wouldn't ever consider one without verifying the veracity of their claims.


You used the words, "free and easy to find," in your post. I never said easy. It is EASIER than it was when I started out in 2002. But you've got to work to get it.

Here's an example...I just listened to a podcast yesterday that had an interview with Gazzo. Let me tell you something, there was more value to an upcoming magician in that one interview than in any course you can buy.

The information IS out there now. The internet is at scale. So if folks want to spend $497 for a "course." Or $34.95/mo to have a 1 hour consult every month, go for it. You do you.

I'll keep sharing my information. For free. There will NEVER be a time when I tease you with a little information to get you to buy my course. There's no course. I'm not a coach. I'm not a guru. I'm a practitioner.

Thanks man for the discussion. Solid. I really appreciate your thoughts.
TomBoleware
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Cafécheckers, to add a few thoughts about choosing a mentor, and if I can I will use Robert for an example.

I have known Robert for a very long time and I have watched him grow into a true professional. He is the real deal. And I know this not because he told me he is, he doesn’t come on here to brag and tell us how great he is. I know he is the real deal from others in the fair market speaking highly of him. He goes out of his way to promote not just himself but ‘others’ in the fair market as well as the entire market. The highly ups in that market love him. But regardless of your own market, you can learn from Robert. Much about running a business and marketing in general can be applied to different markets.

I had the privilege of knowing one of the late greats when it comes to understanding the fair market and how it works. John Owens was a friend of my and what I understand he took Robert under his wing and showed him the ropes as they say.

So I trust Robert and his information not because he told me too, but because others have told me I could.

I say all this to point out that the best way to find a good guru/coach/consultant or whichever word you want to use to describe your teacher, is to not trust everything they tell you about themselves. Rather you should listen to what others have to say about that person and his work.

And it’s also important to notice how the potential teacher treats other people. There is an ole saying that has a lot of truth to it, “what you say about others tells me more about you than the others.”

Tom
Take care and by all means, stay inspired.
Jay Jennings
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On Mar 26, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I see what you are getting at and on the surface it makes sense. BUT again does it not rob you of actually learning? Is being told something the same as "learning" it?


That's what school is (and books, videos, etc.) -- someone tells you something you didn't know so you can learn it.

Learning from your own experiences and learning from the experiences of others are both valuable avenues -- not taking advantage of the latter sounds to me like it could be due to ego.

Jay
Dannydoyle
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Ever read "Zen in the Art of Archery"?

The entire book is predicated on the theory. So you must be saying that the heart of Zen is an ego problem. Got it.

You must know better than a thousands year old philosophy. Got it.

Just because you don't understand, doesn't automatically make it an ego issue. Ironically enough it might be an ego issue that causes this.

You should read the book and the next one. They are not that big, and are worthwhile.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jay Jennings
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On Mar 26, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ever read "Zen in the Art of Archery"?

The entire book is predicated on the theory. So you must be saying that the heart of Zen is an ego problem. Got it.

You must know better than a thousands year old philosophy. Got it.

Just because you don't understand, doesn't automatically make it an ego issue. Ironically enough it might be an ego issue that causes this.

You should read the book and the next one. They are not that big, and are worthwhile.


I posted an obvious opinion ("sounds to me") and even said I may not know the real reason ("could be").

I suspect more than one thousands year old philosophies could be shown to be flawed as time marches on and more knowledge is gained.

Jay

(But no, I never read the book -- although I now have a hold on it at the local college library.)
Dannydoyle
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Don't bother to do research prior to throwing out an obvious attack.

I'm certain by the end of the week you will have all Zen philosophy disproven.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jay Jennings
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On Mar 26, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Don't bother to do research prior to throwing out an obvious attack.

I'm certain by the end of the week you will have all Zen philosophy disproven.


Dude, you are the Master of attacks. You asked a question and I gave my answer, then you jumped all over me.

If you KNEW the freaking answer, why did you ask? If you don't want opinions, don't ask questions.

Jay
WDavis
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A few points to illustrate here:
1. From Checkers, he had an idea of what he was receiving so the label doesn't matter. I beg to disagree, to paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, if we call a dog's tail a leg; how many legs does a dog have? --- 4 because calling a tail a leg doesn't change it to a leg. Labels facilitate understanding an communication, if we remove them then the system of human interaction breakdown.

2. While Robert Smith has chosen to offer his knowledge for free, others choose to charge. Neither is better than the other and I interpret the discourse as a firm stance by Robert against charging. What does matter is the why someone choses to hire a consultant/coach/etc. The reason is twofold: the expectation of the consultant is she saves time and/or money.

3. Human beings receive free advise from others all the time, many times unsolicited. The outcome is much of the advise goes unheeded, yet if we pay for the advise we are more likely to implement it.
Mindpro
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So well said.

Like Robert I have offered absolutely sound free advice consistently here for over a decade now and only made several of my releases, products and services offered here because they were asked for, repeatedly. Information has value, as well as can improve the recipient's value and worth when utilized. You are correct, advice and information is received and viewed much differently when being paid for.

Also information is subjective only to the current level of the recipient. While some here find Robert's free information quite helpful, it is likely because it is new info to them. To others that know this information or even greater info than he offers on the topic, its less appealing or beneficial. Does that make it bad info no, but it is based on the recipient.

Nothing wrong with free advice and info, but premium advice at a cost is what advance education is based upon.
cafecheckers
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On Mar 27, 2017, WDavis wrote:
1. From Checkers, he had an idea of what he was receiving so the label doesn't matter. I beg to disagree, to paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, if we call a dog's tail a leg; how many legs does a dog have? --- 4 because calling a tail a leg doesn't change it to a leg. Labels facilitate understanding an communication, if we remove them then the system of human interaction breakdown..


Is Pluto a planet? While this is an interesting discussion for scientists to quibble about and change their minds back and fourth, to the rest of us if we allow ourselves to freeze in our tracks, it is only our loss.

Not everything fits into neat nice buckets. Until new definitions are created, and accepted by the masses, we do often have to deal with what you refer to as "human interaction breakdown". Truth be told, it was never as built up as you present though.

Am I a magician? If not, please tell me what I am because I am dying to know. I do not believe I am, but that is what my customers keep referring to me as. I identify myself as a children's entertainer, but for the masses I am a magician. I am trying to change that, but it is a process. I wish things were as easy as your anology.
Dannydoyle
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I guess in the end it comes to if you got benefit from it, NO MATTER WHAT IT IS CALLED, then money well spent.

You paid for a service, you feel that service was fulfilled and then some.

In reality it is not even for me to say anything. I pose a different point of view. I do NOT say what Lou does is bad, or what mindpro does is bad. I simply point out that there are many other ways to go about it.

Lou's course (On another thread.) seems to inspire people to action. THAT ALONE is good.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RobertSmith
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On Mar 27, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
So well said.

Like Robert I have offered absolutely sound free advice consistently here for over a decade now and only made several of my releases, products and services offered here because they were asked for, repeatedly. Information has value, as well as can improve the recipient's value and worth when utilized. You are correct, advice and information is received and viewed much differently when being paid for.

Also information is subjective only to the current level of the recipient. While some here find Robert's free information quite helpful, it is likely because it is new info to them. To others that know this information or even greater info than he offers on the topic, its less appealing or beneficial. Does that make it bad info no, but it is based on the recipient.

Nothing wrong with free advice and info, but premium advice at a cost is what advance education is based upon.


"Nothing wrong with free advice...but..."

I always appreciate your feedback even if I don't necessarily agree with it. The beauty of being in business for myself and now developing my personal brand is the market decides whether I stay or go. Not you. Not me. The market.

If you want to tout your knowledge, but only for a price, go for it.
There's no difference between you charging a price for your information and a magic creator charging a price for their trick.

And just like with magic, there's tricks that are amazing and tricks that suck.

Just make sure you're not selling cheap plastic cups and balls while touting them as Sherwood Cups.
There's a difference and the market will sniff you out and expose you.
RobertSmith
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Quote:
On Mar 27, 2017, WDavis wrote:
A few points to illustrate here:

2. While Robert Smith has chosen to offer his knowledge for free, others choose to charge. Neither is better than the other and I interpret the discourse as a firm stance by Robert against charging. What does matter is the why someone choses to hire a consultant/coach/etc. The reason is twofold: the expectation of the consultant is she saves time and/or money.


Nope. Go read what I wrote again.

I cleary stated I'm not against the idea of coaches provided I could verify the veracity of their claims. In other words, they have to be credible. For instance, if someone sold a "Quit Smoking" course or a weight loss course but they themselves were over weight or smokers, you wouldn't find them very credible, would you?

Just like when a "busy kids magician" sells a course but you know they've only done a couple dozen kids shows, you might not find them credible.

That's my point.

Nothing I'm saying here or on my vlog is new. I'm relaying my personal experience. It's all out there.
Just like nothig Mindpro is charging for is new or breakthrough. But it's super easy to tout yourself anonymously where there's no risk of beig exposed.

I'm not against paying for information. But I want it from a credible source.
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