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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Winged Silver On Edge Questions (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Wilktone
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I'm working my way through David Roth's "Expert Coin Magic" by Richard Kaufman. In Chapter 5 there is a variation of Winged Silver that uses edge grip for the final two coins. The first part of the routine is the same as Roth's original handling of Winged Silver.

The first two coins have gone across, from the right hand to the left hand. You're in the position where you have two coins in a pile in front of each hand. The routine, as written out, has you pick up the coins on the right side (the coins that haven't travelled yet), transfer them to the left hand, then pick up the coins on the left side (the coins that have travelled already) and hold them in the right hand. Essentially, you are reversing the position of the coins in front of you just before you make the third coin travel across.

Would it be better to reach across to the coins on the other side of the table or be better as written, switching the position of the coins as they travel across? Why do you feel so? What sort of appropriate patter or misdirection can you think of to explain or cover the suspiciousness of either switching the coin position or reaching across the center line?

Or am I misunderstanding the directions? I am left handed and have made errors learning routines before through forgetting to reverse the instructions around.


Dave
J-Mac
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Hi Dave. My book is downstairs so instead I checked how it looks on Roth's Expert Coin Magic Made Easy DVD and the switch you mention doesn’t happen there. I understand it can be confusing with the shuttle passes back and forth when he is saying, "This coin used to be here, and now it is here...", but still all the coins ultimately go from his right hand to his left on the DVD.

I'll double check the book tomorrow and post back as to what I find there.

Jim
Wilktone
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Thanks, Jim.

Just to be clear, my question isn't about Roth's "classic" Winged Silver, but on the blocking for his Winged Silver On Edge that is in chapter 5. I think perhaps this video will explain my questions about the blocking of this particular variation better.

https://youtu.be/MOD7amr1feI

Is it better to switch the position of each stack of coins or is it better to reach across the center line to get the third coin across?

Dave
Rick Holcombe
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Dave,

Your thinking is correct!

What I mean is: read and study effects that interest you, but question them. Change them, make them a little different, or even better as long as the effect still remains clear to the audience.

I rarely perform something I've read exactly as it's described. But, sometimes that comes from misreading too.

Bottomline, if it looks good and feels better the way you want to do it, then do it that way. Film yourself going through the whole routine and judge it for yourself.

Oh, and let us see too!

Rick
Wilktone
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Thanks, Rick. Thanks also to Josh (who left a comment on the YouTube video).

To be clear, my goal right now is to simply go through the entire book and learn each move and routine "well enough" to get an idea of what it's supposed to look like and whether I will go back and spend more time on it. I'm curious to first learn the routine as it is described and, among other things, analyze the blocking and handling to understand why Roth instructs, for example, to pick up with this hand and in a particular order. My hope is to assimilate what is good structure and routining in coin magic so that I can use that knowledge to branch off into original ideas.

Dave
Richard Kaufman
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Roth doesn't instruct anything! I do.Smile
Wilktone
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Isn't the internet great? You can ask a question about a book and the author joins in the conversation. Neat!

Quote:
On Apr 20, 2017, Richard Kaufman wrote:
Roth doesn't instruct anything! I do.Smile


Sorry about my misattribution. I never really understood how much comes from you and how much comes from Roth (or the other magicians in "Coin Magic"). Either way, I have gotten a lot of pleasure reading your books and trying out routines for myself (and occasionally for friends and family).

Is my question clear? At this stage in the routine you have a pile of 2 coins on each side. If I'm following your instructions correctly, you pick up the pile that has travelled across already, transfer them to your other hand, then reach across the center line to pick up the pile of coins that haven't travelled yet to get them to the "travelled across side" and continue. Perhaps I'm overthinking this and it's a discrepancy that flies by, but is their some thinking as to why this is better than reaching across the center line to grab the coins that haven't travelled across for the edge grip display?

I'm curious about this question mostly because I'm interested in learning about the details of structure and routining of strong coin magic.

Thanks,

Dave
Wilktone
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Just an update. I've been busy with other things but finally got back to this project and recorded myself practicing this routine again.

https://youtu.be/3cg1rF_Dwj4

I don't think that I'll continue to work on this routine specifically. There are some very nice displays on the second half, but I personally feel that it's over proving for a lay audience. My favorite coins across in "Expert Coin Magic" is still the shelled coins across.

That said, the technique that is taught here of getting the coin into edge grip for the display is pretty neat. I think there are some routines coming up later in the book that use it too.
Rick Holcombe
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Nicely done!

I agree with your conclusions though. But, it's important to explore older ideas so that maybe you could take it in a different direction.

Just look at what has become of edge grip/downs palm; it's amazing.

Coins Across is a deep, deep cave to explore.
Wilktone
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Thanks, Rick.

I do love edge grip displays. I'll have to start a new topic for the next trick, since it's one of my favorites - Hanging Coins.

Dave
Jonathan Townsend
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The routine is slightly different in ECM than in CoinMagic.
Did you resolve that your sending hand comes over to the two coins that have traveled, picks them up and then puts those coins into your closed receiving hand?
EG and the scoop addunder are used in place of the earlier handling of a single coin to make a more elegant and direct handling.

In David Roth's ECM, page 79 there's some additional angleproofing doing by bringing the left hand under the right hand... so it reads as pick up the two coins which have yet to travel ...you wind up switching midstream.

Richard K - is that what you intended to describe?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Wilktone
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Quote:
The routine is slightly different in ECM than in CoinMagic.


You're right. I had missed that this same routine, under the name High Flying Winged Silver, is also in Kaufman's "Coin Magic". In the "Coin Magic" version you reach across with the "sending" hand to pick up the coins that have already travelled (doing the scoop addunder) and drop the coins into the "receiving" hand to progress. In the "Expert Coin Magic" version you pick up the coins that haven't travelled with the "sending" hand and drop them into the "receiving" hand before picking up the just travelled coins into the "sending hand." It's possible that this was unintentional. I've often written or even said exactly the opposite of what I intend to say. Or maybe I still have misunderstood the instruction.

Quote:
Did you resolve that your sending hand comes over to the two coins that have traveled, picks them up and then puts those coins into your closed receiving hand?


In the last video I posted of me practicing this routine I followed the "Expert Coin Magic" instructions, so I reversed the position of the coins at that point of the routine. I think that if I were going to continue working on this routine I would go with the "Coin Magic" version. I think it's less noticeable to reach across the center line on the table than to switch the positions of the coins.

Perhaps this is a minor point, but I find analyzing the structure of good routines interesting. Even if I decide not to pursue a routine, I think getting into the details helps me learn to apply those principles into routines I already perform or alter ones I'd like to learn to fit my skills better. I enjoyed working on this routine.

Thanks,

Dave
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