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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
MeetMagicMike,
The issue of the left little finger making contact with the face of the injogged card is really a matter of workable vs refined. If you use a large injog (as HL does), then you probably don't need the little finger contact point helping to control the card. What you do need is experience as a performer, confidence and the ability to correct any mistakes on the fly if need be. Harry is a masterful performer who can do all of that with ease. But if you want a refined or finessed technical ability with cards, then using a smaller injog is the way to go, if for no reason other than it looks better. Using a smaller injog without the little finger making contact is a step in the right direction, but since making contact with the little finger costs you nothing, why not do it? Pros: Allows for a smaller brief on the injogged card and more control (less chance of losing the card accidentally). Cons: Can't think of any. Isn't that an easy choice? Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts |
Bob,
I've read Morris upto the third of the book, my math education had reached its limits. I will give it another try with some maths colleague's help in the near future. Please listen to the Paganini variations, I'm pretty sure you will love some of them, and maybe play a few of them (the level is from average to very difficult. Some pages of Rachmaninov, with some of Liszt and Prokofiev, are the most difficult of the entire repertoire. But they really worth the needed efforts. In comparison to magic, it would be like you must perfectly deal seconds, thirds, fourth, bottoms and middle during 45 minutes without a mistake nor an hesitation. Technically speaking, I find magic less difficult than a lot of instruments. Guy Hollingworth has the same view as me. I would be curious about the point of view of other magicians, knowing that magic and music are very often practiced together. |
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts |
The advantage of the concertist is that he can build a "bubble" during performing. We just can't do that performing magic. Maybe for magicians it is a good thing because they can handle more easily stage fright. But for me, it makes the performance more difficult.
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SimonCard Special user 601 Posts |
I find playing instruments way way harder than doing magic. I listened to a few pieces of Chopin and Mozart 3 years ago. It was so beautiful that I thought I needed to be able to play them on piano. I practiced for about a year and half daily, but it progressed so slowly that it sounded like crap. I guess I will stick to listening to music for my entire life.
man I hope I could play piano...... I think music instruments are something one has to start to learn early in life. But for magic, I believe any time you can start learning and then be able to perform quite a few decent routines. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
I'm increasingly fascinated by how different people are in their abilities and interests. Also, as a college teacher, I notice that students develop at different rates: some are clearly talented when they arrive as freshmen; others clearly not so talented, and yet, some people in the latter group, by the time they graduate, are excellent and go to grad school in math.
I love Mozart and Chopin too, but I have a different take. I took a year of piano when I was eight (hated it), and then started again in my mid-fifties. Following a few years of bouncing around trying to find a good teacher, I've now found one I love, and I've made lots of progress in the five years I've been with her.. So for me, at least, it wasn't a problem to start latish in life. Of course, having a good teacher makes a tremendous difference. And I have no ambitions to be a concert pianist! I've sometimes wondered if it would help to find a good magic teacher. Actually I'm *sure* it would help. But I have far less instinct about who would make a good magic teacher than who would be a good music teacher. So right now I'm content to teach myself from books and dvd's, with occasional help from people at the Magic Café, who, judging from this first experience, are very generous. So, SimonCard, if you love music, I'd encourage you to work with a teacher. You might surprise yourself. My teacher told me something that I loved, and which you may find encouraging: It's possible to play beautifully at all levels. Not all of us can aspire to Rachmaninov's level (this could refer to the famous composer or to the R. on this thread), but all of us who have a musical sense can learn to play beautifully at less advanced levels. And that, I find, is very satisfying. Now if I can just get my injog shuffle in place, *that* will be satisfying too! |
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts |
I second Bob advice, find a good teacher and everything will appear different, and your progresses will surprise even you !
Yes piano needs to be practiced early, when the brain is very flexible. I've started at age 5, with a very good teacher, I've stopped between 12 and 19 (teenager time …) and started again around 19. The missing years during teenager prevents me of being professional, you need to be in the train all along. Between 19 and 23, I was practicing upto 12 hours a day. But it was too late, and I was lacking a little precision in the most difficult pages. Moreover, Stage fright was impossible to handle for me, and it is a crippling factor. So no regret ! This dedication has helped me a lot in magic, in many regards, not just technically speaking. |
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts |
Since 20 years old, I've made everything by myself, without any direct teacher. People often asked me how I have achieved where I am now being alone. I answer them I'm very far from being alone. I have the greatest magicians in my library, I can listen the best musicians live or online. So if you know how to work, it is manageable. It is my way of learning. And I have the ability to make a step aside of me, and watching me or listening me as someone else, so I can see what's wrong and I can try to change it.
I must confess that now, I would need some expert outside eye or hear, ponctually. I think I'm sufficiently advanced to fully be receptive to their advice. |
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts |
And yes Bob, everybody can play beautifully at every level. But for a great artistic performance of any piece, you need tremendous technical skills so you can really make the piece sounds as you want to.
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts |
It is the same in magic, you can fully do what you want in the way you want, if the skills needed are mastered to the point you don't even have to think about it. I would make an exception for really tough sleights in magic or crazy virtuosity on an instrument, it is sometimes so hard that you must focus on what you do, and not only how you express it to communicate with your audience. At least the concentration is divided.
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts |
I have never seen a world class pianist being able to play transcendantal studied by Liszt, without looking at their hands, and mean while having a conversation with someone. It will never happen.
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SimonCard Special user 601 Posts |
I assume stage fright is a common thing. Even Gould had stage fright that he quited public performing, I heard.
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hitlab New user Perth 19 Posts |
How is the progress coming along Bob? A lot of it has to do with muscle memory. A movement you can't do will slowly be come awkward to do then become manageable etc so on. Try position your hands slightly differently, move the deck around a little bit, sometimes tiny adjustments make you get it.
I don't know exactly how to describe it but you feel physical "epiphany" when you just repeat the awkward movements over and over, then your movements will get slightly better after that, then you just repeat until you master the technique. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Thanks for your interest and encouragement, hitlab. It's coming along well. Of course only a few days have gone by since I posted, so I'm just at the beginning of making the adjustments that you so eloquently describe. But various pieces of what different people said have given me ideas, and I'm playing around with them. I'm practicing the regular overhand shuffle with my left index finger higher on the deck, for instance, and that's helping make the shuffle neater. I'm varying the position and angle of the index finger to see what works best.
And I'm able to do a (very large and slow) in-jog now with my pinky curled around the bottom. I then straighten my pinky so it contacts the jogged portion of the card -- another suggestion someone in this thread made. So I think I've been instinctively doing what you suggest -- and am looking forward to the hypothetical day when when that epiphany occurs! Gosh, magic is exciting... Thanks again! Bob |
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts |
I've discovered that the learning process is very enjoyable and when you manage to do a thing which appears impossible a time ago, there is a euphoric moment, rewarding all the efforts. For me, learning is far better than performing.
Yes I know that a lot of artists have stage fright. The great Horowitz has cancelled concerts at the very last moment. He was feeling incapable of playing. Since I'm a child, every time I have to play a piece on the piano in front of people, I'm feeling that I'm dying... |
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NWJay Regular user 110 Posts |
I know this is slightly OT but with Bob G's forbearance this seems a good place to ask: what method do most people use to actually achieve the injog? Almost everything I've read so far recommends moving your right hand back slightly, but having now looked at CC1 Giobbi advises using your left thumb solely, which feels much harder at speed...
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
NWJay,
Sounds on-topic to me! I've wondered the same thing (though I'm nowhere near to "at speed"). |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Interesting - I use the overhand injog shuffle A LOT - I've written many times that it is one of the most important - if not THE most important "maneuver" in card magic; it covers a multitude of sins.
And I've never really paid attention as to how I move my right hand. I think that thinking about it may be a bit of a problem - it's a "just do it" maneuver. If you like, go to www.youtube.com/harrylorayneonvideo - I perform 35 different effects/routines there - and probably do the overhand injog shuffle in 34 of them!! So you can check as to the (probably obvious)movements of my hands.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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