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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Deckless! » » Veeser Count vs. Elmsley Count -- advice on which to learn first (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Bob G
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Regular user
109 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Hi folks,

I'm a beginner; I've been studying and practicing basic sleights for about a year; and I'd like to try out some packet tricks, which are pleasingly minimal. It seems that nearly everyone uses the Elmsley Count, but Jerry Mentzer in his Counts...Subtleties book says that Veeser's count accomplishes the same thing but in a more natural way that's easier for beginners. On the other hand, there's a thread in the Deckless category called "Veeser Count" in which one contributor (Paul) says that the two aren't interchangeable. Does anyone have advice about which one to learn first? If the two counts *are* interchangeable, I'd just as soon learn the easier one first -- Veeser's -- if in fact his *is* easier!

Thanks for any advice.

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San Ramon, CA
345 Posts

Profile of Boomer
I hadn't heard/remembered the Veeser Count, so had to pull out my CCM&S and look it up.

I couldn't do an Elmsley very well until after I bought Liam Montier/Big Blind Media's Elmsley Count Project.

Yea, I know, it's easy, but I just couldn't pull it off. Now I can.

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Los Angeles
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Profile of DadwithAPen
My recollection is Vesser is Elmsley in biddle grip.

When I started out I learned two counts. The Elmsley and Jordan. Basically one count gets you into a position to do the other. I don't know why packet tricks don't teach the Jordan count and instead have you switch cards from top to bottom.

That being said, don't choose the 'easier path' just because it's easier. Choose BOTH! Learn both and perfect them. Hard to do a Vesser with dollar bills. But you learn both and you have more in your 'bag of tricks'.

Counting the 'elmsley way' is more natural in my opinion and you don't need the cover that a biddle grip provides for Vesser.
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Profile of NWJay
Bob, I've been practising the Elmsley and Jordan for the last few months and initially I found the latter far easier to do. I haven't seen anyone else say this so it might just be a quirk of mine, but the transfer felt far more natural and not as complex to acquire the muscle memory for, so it might be worth giving that a go too and seeing how you find it.

That said, it really is worth the effort of grinding away until you get both down. Mine is still far from perfect but I've got to the point where the muscle memory is basically there, and once you have it it opens the way to so many wonderful effects. My practice routine was doing Twisting the Aces a few times in a row which I've found a pretty pleasurable way of learning it.
Bob G
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109 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Dad and NWJay, Thanks for your insights.

Dad: It sounds like Veeser is more "closed" looking than Elmsley, which would make Elmsley less suspicious-looking. Yes, I want to learn *all* sleights, but time is limited...

NWJay: I found your experience interesting. I'll play with both Jordan and Elmsley and see whether the Jordan comes easier. If so I'll follow your lead and learn Jordan first.

Thanks again! Bob
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1412 Posts

Profile of pabloinus
Bob, the most used count is Elmsley, a lot of packet tricks use just elmsley and they are great, just practice it while doing tricks. Aldo Colombini has millions as well as Paul Gordon and Phil Goldstein.

Queen out of Control is a great trick with many surprises and only Elmsley counts, check it out
Bob G
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Profile of Bob G
Thanks Pablonius! Given where I am, I like the sound of *only* Elmsley.
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Profile of jljones83
I didn't really find the Elmsley that hard to pick up, and the BBM Elmsley Count Project as mentioned by boomer is a great resource.
IIRC, Gerry Griffin's Complete Card Magic is where I learned it, from 'Back to Basics Poker'.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Deckless! » » Veeser Count vs. Elmsley Count -- advice on which to learn first (0 Likes)
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