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martonikus Regular user 167 Posts 
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One more point about all this.
We are "fooled" all the time by cell phones, microwave ovens, refrigerators etc. because most people have basically no idea how any of this really works. Magic is not about "fooling" - it is about entertaining - by using illusions (effects) as a medium. Convincing illusions are much better than bad ones. But they are still just the medium - not the message. Kudos to Will Tsai for creating an awesome illusion - and a pretty good performance to go with it. |
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themagician8 New user 8 Posts
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I've loved & performed magic for over 45 yrs., but have been "out of the loop" for quite a few. So forgive me if I sound odd.
But tell me when has it become "OK" to use Special FX, camera tricks,false edits & fake audiences in our art? I really don't want to speak badly of Will Tsai. He seems like a nice enough kid, and I know he sells magic for Sansmind. Tho I'm not clear if he invents the effects or not. So if he does, great. BUT... what I saw on AGT was a guy on stage with a fake camera pointing at his hands as he pantomimed in sync to what was happening on a large screen above him. And that was a prerecorded, heavily edited, routine of camera tricks. And anyone who came away thinking it was sleight of hand or a "special table" should look at it again closely. His hands never even covered the coins at one point, and if you know anything about video editing, you could see there was no "mechanical table" in use. Nothing "flipped or spun" etc. Simply lightning fast camera edits. There's another kid who does AMAZING things on youtube, like dropping out of his clothing & turning into a puddle of water! And if you don't think he's using fast camera edit FX, visit his youtube page and witness a whole page of "miracles" that use absolutely NO form of our Art of Magic, but instead camera FX. And there are 2 other TV magicians earning a good living doing the same thing... using edits, camera FX, scripted & fake "impromtu", astonishing miracles that could never be performed live with a REAL audience. Yeah, there are only but so many super fantastic miracles of magic to keep a TV audience amazed week after week and retain ratings. But C'mon! I see it as becoming extremely damaging to our beloved Art. After witnessing "Jesus" FX of walking on water, flying over buildings, etc... Audiences going to see an actual magician/illusionist perform live would becomed BORED FAST! A real magician couldn't compete with these "Wizards of Special Camera FX"! And what really disappoints me is some of these fake TV guys are actually really GREAT live magicians! I went to one guy's show on Broadway years ago and he was FANTASTIC! Now he's a "God of Magic" to lay audiences, only he can DO most of those effects live for them. But alas, I guess he's a slave to ratings. And I remember it started many years ago when a very famous person did a statue vanish using a turntable camera trick, and also used a prerecorded video to escape from an imploding building. Later on, someone else "levitated" on a street corner about 4 ft. from the ground. It might be argued by some, that this practice "keeps magicians on their toes", and "forces them to come up with greater miracles". Or so the "Masked Magician" likes to say as he cashes in on exposing tricks. And that's how I feel about this recent practice of Fake Magic on TV. (Is that an oxymoron?) It's just like it seems "Anything goes" as long as it produces a miracle for TV. These TV Wonder Workers are also cashing in making a quick name, and a quicker buck for themselves. But I truly feel it robs from our True Art of Magic. And it's gonna turn around and bite Magic in butt, and damage actual LIVE working magicians. And eventually make audiences bored with watching them. Not really trying to bad mouth anyone. It's just that I LOVE our ART. And I don't understand this new thing I see, and especially see others condoning it. It's not our ART. |
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SleepyMagic Inner circle Hopefully I'll pass my exams with 1646 Posts
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I disagree.
I'm pretty sure that these talent shows are not allowed to have camera tricks when magicians perform. I know this because I applied once and it said in the terms that if you are a magician, you will not be allowed to "reveal tricks or use camera tricks of any sort". Also, if it was a camera trick then why did he vanish the cards the way he did, he could have easily made vanishing the cards look better if he had used camera tricks. Sleepy |
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themagician8 New user 8 Posts
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Maybe not THEIR cameras. Use your eyes.
Also punch in his name on Youtube, and hit subscribe. He does about 8 videos of effects that if you use your eyes, and especially COMMON SENSE... you can easily see they are all done with FX. |
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SleepyMagic Inner circle Hopefully I'll pass my exams with 1646 Posts
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Just because you don't know how an effect is done, does not mean it is done using FX.
Sleepy |
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mh1001 Special user 602 Posts
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Themagician8, I think you lost some credibility when you say it must be camera trick. Let alone the fact you have absolutely no evidence at all. Also, using gimmicks is not the same as using special video effects. As has been said by several people here (including me), even a self working gimmick requires that you practice on your angles, naturalness of movement, and presentation (to make it believable - an effect which is too perfect is its own weakness).
Also, your second post is no less wrong. You're assuming that if an effect can be realized with the use of camera effects, then it must be done this way. I can talk about the first months when I started magic, about 1.5 years ago, and I was using essentially self-working card tricks, especially those which are based on math principles, and sometimes people guessed right about that. They "knew" it's based on maths. So even if it's super duper easy, it's so wrong to think no work is required on your part. |
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3504 Posts
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Themagician8 wrote:
Quote:
what I saw on AGT was a guy on stage with a fake camera pointing at his hands as he pantomimed in sync to what was happening on a large screen above him. And that was a prerecorded, heavily edited, routine of camera tricks. And anyone who came away thinking it was sleight of hand or a "special table" should look at it again closely. Yeah, I think Themagician8 is completely wrong about camera tricks being used. He's definitely wrong to be so sure. Side note: If someone makes a 500 word post and you want to comment does it really make sense to quote the entire thing? In my opinion it makes things less clear rather than helping. Wouldn't it make more sense to just post the most relevant parts? There is something to be said for keeping things concise. |
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videoman Inner circle 6750 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2017, MeetMagicMike wrote: That is my dream and I hope one day during my lifetime it will come to pass on a wide scale. And a quick preview (proofread) wouldn't hurt either, but alas, things seem to be getting worse instead of better. Oh well, I can still dream. |
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themagician8 New user 8 Posts
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There's "Hmm, not quite sure how that was done." And then offering some solution. Then there's watching an effect and knowing thru experience and COMMON SENSE, that it would be PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to do.
Watch this video and pay close attention to his pulling a picture from an iphone effect and other closeup effects. https://youtu.be/x4LqL-CpNds All these are done with fast edits. Now, go to Will's Youtube channel and watch all of his effects. Here's a few: https://youtu.be/dwia7eEyee8 https://youtu.be/ghEnqDkSUOM How did Will turn a 9v battery into 2 AA with absolutely NO cover, no moves and just a "flick"? And watch the coin routine in slo-mo. Now search YouTube for a slo-mo version of his AGT coin effect. Ain't no table gimmack THAT fast. Even things like an appearing cane are caught in slo-mo. But tearing apart Will Tsai's effect isn't my goal and especially WASN'T my question. I was mainly talking about ALL of these fake TV FX used by Criss Angel, David Blaine, Michael Carbonarro ( who really disappointed me becsuse he didn't use these methods at first. And I really liked him.) Just use your eyes, magical experience, deconstruction, but most of all... COMMON SENSE! What these new guys are using isn't OUR ART. And I've seen a bunch of other magicians using these camera FX as well. And this stuff is going to hurt LIVE MAGIC eventually. |
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SleepyMagic Inner circle Hopefully I'll pass my exams with 1646 Posts
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I can think up of a method for the battery trick but not the vanish of a card. Still doesn't mean they are fake.
Also, Michael carbonnarro doesn't use camera tricks. Sleepy |
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TStone V.I.P. Stockholm, Sweden 774 Posts
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Quote:
What these new guys are using isn't OUR ART. And I've seen a bunch of other magicians using these camera FX as well. There's no camera tricks being used in the AGT performance. |
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Slackerking Special user 613 Posts
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Sorry magician8 but you're way off base. They don't allow camera tricks on AGT. You just come across as a grumpy curmudgeon who hasn't kept up with the field whether you are or not. Acts like this and all those other performers don't ruin magic for people. If anything they bring more eyes and interests to magic not the reverse. Some of those performers you derided are the reason I and so many others are into magic and love it. All you have to do is watch the audience reaction to know how unbelievably far off base you are. They were stunned en masse. As we're millions like me who watched on our sofas.
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themagician8 New user 8 Posts
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"Audience" reactions are what you go by?
Do you actually think 75% of performers like Criss Angel are using REAL audience members? Nevermind. Keep practicing your backpalms. You'll be fine. |
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SleepyMagic Inner circle Hopefully I'll pass my exams with 1646 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2017, themagician8 wrote: No one is denying that Criss Angel uses actors. But this thread isn't about him. AGT does NOT allow camera tricks for magic performances, and that is in their terms and conditions which they cannot go against. Again, just because you can't explain am effect, doesn't mean it uses camera trickery. Sleepy |
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themagician8 New user 8 Posts
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Then please, "enlighten" me...
How DOES in your opinion, Will Tsai changeand rearrange those coins with no cover. Or for that matter, vanish that card with rolled up sleeves 2 ft. away from his body or "split a battery into to without cover & just a flick? And a "blanket statement" or "agreement" of "no camera tricks" means can mean nothing and be wirked around. Copoerfield did it with the Statue of Liberty. Angel eith walking on Water. No "camera tricks were used there per se. And Tsai didn't use camera tricks to perform that coin routine... at keast not using AGT's cameras! I can reverse your statement and say just because you "think" you know (ie, high tech battery gaffs, Trap doors, laser beams etc.) Doesn't mean that YOU are right either. I have over 45 yrs of magic experience, and 58 yrs of COMMON SENSE to know how Tsai's effects are done. And trust me, unlike you... there's no hero worship going on either. Use your brain. |
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SleepyMagic Inner circle Hopefully I'll pass my exams with 1646 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2017, themagician8 wrote: I don't want to, in detail, discuss what I think Will is using for the coin work, however, I will say, think about a well known card gimmick applied to coins and using BA. Again, this is only speculation. And I'll admit that I don't know how Will Tsai made that card vanish. But I also don't know how this effect was accomplished before I bought it: https://youtu.be/4yhWTzNWTk8 The above effects looks exactly like a camera trick and I'm sure that you would have thought that as well if it wasnt for sale. The battery one is too complicated to explain on here and I don't want to because it's such a great trick! But I'll give you hint, what was the need in him putting the battery on a deck of cards. Will Tsai is just a creative guy and just because his effects look impressive, doesn't mean he's using camera tricks. For example, million dollar baby looked like a camera trick as well, but hey ho, it wasn't. Sleepy |
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themagician8 New user 8 Posts
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I can see how that card effect might look like camera FX, but I can also realize how it's done. But there is also momentary COVER to achieve the effect. When Tsai's coin switch locations there IS no cover, and ehen they change to petals... no cover either. There isn't a table mechanism THAT fast on earth to switch, flip, mask those coins on the planet. Watch it in Slow motion. You'd see SOMETHING. And the table isn't a large tablet, because he actually places tge coins down, picks them up, and removes the petals with absolutely no kind if sleight move.
Watch again in slo-mo: https://youtu.be/3tiML3htyZ0 Copperfield had a video camera trained on him locked in a safe as he stuggled to free himself before the building imploded from dynamite charges. Jyst as he started to get out, the building blew up. The video that played a continuous shot in the lower corner of the screen was a prerecorded video of him escaping. The other camera was handheld by a cameraman running out of tge building I believe. David was out in seconds and just ran out a back door, as the audience THOUGHT they were watching him escape. "Camera trick"? Technically no I guess. But kind of. Same with Will. That camera in front of him is filming nothing, and he just choreographs his hand motions to a video playing above which you THINK is him... but in reality is a prerecorded tape of him with stop/start camera edits. I'm sorry if I sounded insulting before, it wasn't my intention. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it until someone else can PROVE he's doing it thru other means. |
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SleepyMagic Inner circle Hopefully I'll pass my exams with 1646 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2017, themagician8 wrote: Again, IMO the table had nothing to do with it...just think about a classic card gimmick applied to coins and used with BA. I'm tired of arguing a pointless argument that I will never win anyway. Sleepy |
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themagician8 New user 8 Posts
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On THAT I can agree with you! 🤡
When I went to Frank Garcia's first school for magicians way back in th 70's (A classmate was a young guy named Seth Kotkin. Google that name.) I used to SWEAR that the Broom Illusion was done with wires until one of the teachers Dick Brooks was going to sell me one out of the trunk of his car. Ahh... to be young, stubborn & nieve! |
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Stperformer Loyal user 291 Posts
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I have been on Got Talent 4 years ago and here's what I saw.
No camera tricks period. Earlier in the day I had a rehearsal and went over exactly what I would be doing...so the camera people knew exactly where to point and where NOT. The same with everyone else...there are rehearsals and lots of editing for TV but there were no camera tricks as some of you are insinuating. My experience 
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » SansMinds Magic » » Will Tsai - AGT. Mind=Blown (119 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Jun 16, 2017 01:29 am 
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