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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Tamariz or Redford (13 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bobby Forbes
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Quote:
On Jul 26, 2017, RickDangerous wrote:
So out of interest: Anyone made the switch? And if not, why not?


Yessir! I'm 100% switched over. Every routine I used for mnemonica can be done with the Redford stack. One huge selling point for switching is the ability to get into stack very quickly. While mnemonica was great, getting into stack required quite a few faro shuffles or a quadruple anti faro, which required you to begin in new deck order. With Redfords stack, you can get into mem stack with a shuffled borrowed deck, without Faro's, and without knowing the stack cold, and all done in the hands no table required. The Chinese shuffle makes this very easy. I am proficient with the faro so I'm not an anti faro kind of guy, but with some decks, even brand new bicycles from the store, they just will not faro because of the card stock quality nowadays. Redford stack is pure genius if you ask me.
sgtgrey
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I'm actually on the opposite side of it - I've read the book (which is great, btw), but I wasn't convinced to change from Mnemonica to Redford stack (at least, not yet).

Most of the stack-dependent effects I was interested in (such as the Faro Effects and the title effect) were easily adapted to Mnemonica, and I have only little interest in the poker-, spelling-, or story-related effects. Since I have multiple methods to go FASDIU to Mnemonica, NDO to Mnemonica, Mnemonica to Stay Stack, Mnemonica Red/Black, etc. and I have worked with it so long and already have many effects and work I've learned that rely on Mnemonica, I am not easily swayed to change.

Yes, I'd say Redford is easier to get into b/c of the type of shuffles involved, but not faster...I've timed myself doing both, and it's about the same time to get to Redford as it is Mnemonica, for me at least. It's easier to get to Red/Black or Stay Stack from Redford, but not materially so for my purposes. It's also not difficult to get into any stack FASDIU without faro shuffles, as I have multiple methods for accomplishing this with Mnemonica already, so the Chinese Shuffle was not new or special to me, personally.

The biggest advantage of the Redford stack I saw was the ability to quickly get to Si Stebbins. This is the one that gives me pause, as there are some wonderful effects that can only be accomplished with the properties of the Si Stebbins stack, and in order for me to get to them from Mnemonica, I'd either need to restack as if from a shuffled deck in use, or go Mnemonica->NDO->Si Stebbins - either of which is much more arduous than Redford to Si Stebbins. However, this one major improvement would also require me to give up the Mnemonica-dependent ideas and knowledge I have, so I am reticent to make a change when I consider what I would lose and the work involved for that tradeoff (For me, it is beyond just memorizing the deck as I would also need to re-learn many other stack-specific properties of the Redford stack in order to use it as I do, such as quartet distance locations, re-adapting certain stack-specific effects, etc.)

So in sum, I think regardless of whether you adopt the stack, the book is worth a read for any stack working (especially memorized deck!) magician. I also think the stack has many great features built-in and many great possibilities, but at least for now I did not find enough that I would use or find a material enough benefit for me to make the tradeoff of losing what I already have through Mnemonica. Perhaps I will be swayed over time, or after the addition of 2 more promised books, but for now I remain with Mnemonica.
Bobby Forbes
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Sgtgrey I've always enjoyed reading your posts man. PM'd you buddy.
RickDangerous
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I can't believe I made
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Quote:
On Jul 28, 2017, sgtgrey wrote:
I'm actually on the opposite side of it - I've read the book (which is great, btw), but I wasn't convinced to change from Mnemonica to Redford stack (at least, not yet).

Most of the stack-dependent effects I was interested in (such as the Faro Effects and the title effect) were easily adapted to Mnemonica, and I have only little interest in the poker-, spelling-, or story-related effects. Since I have multiple methods to go FASDIU to Mnemonica, NDO to Mnemonica, Mnemonica to Stay Stack, Mnemonica Red/Black, etc. and I have worked with it so long and already have many effects and work I've learned that rely on Mnemonica, I am not easily swayed to change.

Yes, I'd say Redford is easier to get into b/c of the type of shuffles involved, but not faster...I've timed myself doing both, and it's about the same time to get to Redford as it is Mnemonica, for me at least. It's easier to get to Red/Black or Stay Stack from Redford, but not materially so for my purposes. It's also not difficult to get into any stack FASDIU without faro shuffles, as I have multiple methods for accomplishing this with Mnemonica already, so the Chinese Shuffle was not new or special to me, personally.

The biggest advantage of the Redford stack I saw was the ability to quickly get to Si Stebbins. This is the one that gives me pause, as there are some wonderful effects that can only be accomplished with the properties of the Si Stebbins stack, and in order for me to get to them from Mnemonica, I'd either need to restack as if from a shuffled deck in use, or go Mnemonica->NDO->Si Stebbins - either of which is much more arduous than Redford to Si Stebbins. However, this one major improvement would also require me to give up the Mnemonica-dependent ideas and knowledge I have, so I am reticent to make a change when I consider what I would lose and the work involved for that tradeoff (For me, it is beyond just memorizing the deck as I would also need to re-learn many other stack-specific properties of the Redford stack in order to use it as I do, such as quartet distance locations, re-adapting certain stack-specific effects, etc.)

So in sum, I think regardless of whether you adopt the stack, the book is worth a read for any stack working (especially memorized deck!) magician. I also think the stack has many great features built-in and many great possibilities, but at least for now I did not find enough that I would use or find a material enough benefit for me to make the tradeoff of losing what I already have through Mnemonica. Perhaps I will be swayed over time, or after the addition of 2 more promised books, but for now I remain with Mnemonica.

Couldn't agree more. Exactly my feelings. Thanks Sgtgrey
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stickmondoo
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Patrick's stack is clever and has lots of great ideas and the book is worth reading even if you don't perform Memorized Deck magic because it's filled with so much great information but I just don't see why anyone would memorise a stack you can't spread on the table or deal face up.
stickmondoo
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Having said that, I realise many have. The Hacker Stack and Ortiz to name but two. I like my stack random looking though.
Bobby Forbes
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You can spread the Redford stack face up on the table. Looks random. Also Si stebbins can be spread face up as well. How long are you laying your spread on the table? I don't even spread a legitimately shuffled deck of cards face up for more than a couple of seconds. Not many laymen will know what they are looking at. A few seconds is not enough time to spot a reasonably random looking stack in my opinion. Unless you invite them to study the spread, I don't see why they would...
Claudio
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There are effects though that do require a random looking stack. Here are a couple from the top of my head:

. some versions of The Princess Card Trick such as Aronson's "Histed Heisted"
. Steve Ehlers's The Three-Card Location

Although you don't spread the cards, you call them in stack order and any stack that's not random enough would jeopardise the effect.
stickmondoo
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It's not the spreading so much. its the dealing face up. I just wouldn't feel comfortable. I know you can get around it by spread counting face down and so on. I just would rather have a completely random looking mem Deck. Just personal preference.
lukkudlek
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Wow. I am definitely going to check out Redford. Thanks for the reviews.
Patrick Redford
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2017, stickmondoo wrote:
Patrick's stack is clever and has lots of great ideas and the book is worth reading even if you don't perform Memorized Deck magic because it's filled with so much great information but I just don't see why anyone would memorise a stack you can't spread on the table or deal face up.

I spread mine on the table and deal it face up often. There are a few videos doing exactly that online. It's never been an issue. It holds up to these kinds of conditions. I wouldn't hand it to someone to take home if they were going to go hunting within the stack without giving it a shuffle first, but that's because there's so much packed into it.
Steven Leung
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Quote:
On Jun 26, 2017, Ben Blau wrote:
Redford Stack is a literal machine. It does so many things. I can't think of any reason not to use it if you're still on the fence about which memstack to learn.


Thanks Ben opinion, for me whom I wished to memorized Tamariz stack over a decade, I still on my way around 30-40 card at most. No matter I got those iphone programme help me trained my memory... or simply not enough chance to perform those trick that used enough.

I will definitely spend some serious time into Redford stack, hopefully it can provide me more routines in my card magic arsenal.
Most memorable moment in my life - Photo with Maestro in FISM Asia 2011.

"Being fooled by a trick doesn't always mean they are having a good time" - Homer Liwag
Hong Kong made a page in FISM history in 2015, 2nd runner up in Parlour (Henry Harrius) & Card (Kelvin Chow)
Steven Leung
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Quote:
On Jul 28, 2017, Bobby Forbes wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 26, 2017, RickDangerous wrote:
So out of interest: Anyone made the switch? And if not, why not?


Yessir! I'm 100% switched over. Every routine I used for mnemonica can be done with the Redford stack. One huge selling point for switching is the ability to get into stack very quickly. While mnemonica was great, getting into stack required quite a few faro shuffles or a quadruple anti faro, which required you to begin in new deck order. With Redfords stack, you can get into mem stack with a shuffled borrowed deck, without Faro's, and without knowing the stack cold, and all done in the hands no table required. The Chinese shuffle makes this very easy. I am proficient with the faro so I'm not an anti faro kind of guy, but with some decks, even brand new bicycles from the store, they just will not faro because of the card stock quality nowadays. Redford stack is pure genius if you ask me.


Great to know, since I am still waiting the book to arrive... just a comment I am not sure what Chinese shuffle means in the book, and being a chiness I assume that chinese shuffle = hindu shuffle should I say?
Most memorable moment in my life - Photo with Maestro in FISM Asia 2011.

"Being fooled by a trick doesn't always mean they are having a good time" - Homer Liwag
Hong Kong made a page in FISM history in 2015, 2nd runner up in Parlour (Henry Harrius) & Card (Kelvin Chow)
Doctor D
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Quote:
On Oct 16, 2017, Steven Leung wrote:

Great to know, since I am still waiting the book to arrive... just a comment I am not sure what Chinese shuffle means in the book, and being a chiness I assume that chinese shuffle = hindu shuffle should I say?


The Chinese shuffle has nothing to do with Hindu shuffling or being Asian; it's a method - not Patrick's and fully credited - of arranging a shuffled deck into Si Stebbins. Openly, in front of spectators.
MorrisCH
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I vividly remember years ago I stumble upon a thread regarding "Your Dream stack"
This was the time when Tamariz's stack was just getting popular in the US
the op asked what are people's opinions and ideas of perfect build-in features in their dream deck would have

The general ideas are Poker Demo, Blackjack, Bridge, Hold'em
can easily shuffle from NDO or vice versa
or quickly reverting to different stack
Spelling effects, 4 of kind production
story tricks.etc

Since most stack already have those features, it only comes down to how effectively can one stack fulfill these features
after study Redford/memonica/Aronson, I believe we finally have such Dream stack
it process all the possible gambling demo, so much quicker to shuffle from NDO in comparison to Tamariz's stack
at least 4 possible way to transfer to different stack via overhand shuffle (include Si-Stebbins, Red/black, Stay Stack.etc)
able to go into other people's effect by swapping few cards here and there (Pit Harting, John Bannon, Asi Wind just to name a few)
and this just the first book Redford publish on stack(at least 2 more to come), I can't wait to find out more about the possibility of this stack.
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