Danny,

I can see why this particular effect hit a nerve with you because you sell it to the general public on your magic show website.

I've already given my reasons why I think teaching this particular magic trick to the general public is NOT a good thing.

I'll let Frank take it from here, should he decide to respond to your question.

Thanks,

Gerry

It hasn't hit a nerve for me. I'm willing to listen to advice and opinions. But, Just saying it's wrong is not very helpful. Explaining why someone believes it's wrong is helpful and will be taken into consideration. You gave me a reason for your opinion and I appreciate you took the time to do so.

Hey Danny,

It's great that you're open to hearing other thoughts and opinions.

Let's just say there are many many other tricks you can teach kids without giving away "the classics".

I suppose, but what if someone has an issue with one of them? I respect your opinion but what is acceptable to some may not always be acceptable to others. For example; I consulted with other magicians in my province and none of them had an issue with me teaching the equal/unequal rope trick. No one here had an issue with me teaching the cut and restored rope trick, but one local had an issue with that one. No one has an issue with teaching the French drop, but I was originally skeptical of teaching that one. All I can do is listen to others opinions, take them into account and weigh the pro's and the cons of each one.

If you consulted with other magicians before you decided to do that, I think that's great.
I'm shocked nobody had a problem with it but I appreciate you doing the research.

Hey Danny,

Not to beat a dead horse . . .

The few times I taught a magic course to a bunch of kids at summer camps, I had a blast just doing my homework in order to find rudimentary magical effects. The ones I finally settled on were the following:

Magic Boomerangs
Another optical illusion
Loop the Loop (small cloth loops they sell at craft stores)
Linking paper clips
Psychic Crayon
A mystifying puzzle
magnetic pencil
several card tricks
a mindreading effect

There were 1-2 others, but you get the idea. At no time did I feel like I was selling out our magic fraternity because the effects were very basic.

In recent years some guys have released some wonderful courses, manuscripts and accessories. Jeff Wawrzaszek sells some great giveaway magic cards. I wish I had them when I was doing this stuff.

Gerry

I forgot to mention the fortune telling fish. Kids love these.

Here's something that would also be right up you alley, though I have absolutely nothing to do with this project:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/112......es-cards

No charge for doing your homework.

Gerry

A couple of threads that might prove helpful:

Thread titled... Teaching Magic one-on-one and in courses

Thread titled... Public domain effects f......ruction?

And on those threads, I've posted links to other threads with more information.

- Donald

Legit question. With so many books out there and dvd's and magic shops of magicians teaching equal/unequal rope trick what is the difference between me teaching it and all the others who teach it?

For starters, you have to take magic shops out of the equation because they're in the business of selling magical effects and information. In the days before the Internet, where else would you go to buy magic tricks?

IF a few books and DVD's came along with full explanations of Axtell's drawing board or the crystal silk cylinder, would you teach those effects as well? My guess is no because those particular effects are part of your act and are just too good to pitch to non-magicians.

I guess I feel the same way about Professor's Nightmare.

Do as you please, but if at least three magicians are telling you not to teach this particular effect to muggles , that should tell you something.

As Dick Oslund has often said, "Don't run if no one is chasing you."

Gerry

Okay, Let's take magic shops out of the equation. That still leaves all the other magicians who teach the equal/unequal rope trick in their books, dvd's and downloads. The equal/unequal rope trick is part of some of my shows, so is the cut and restored rope trick, and the french drop. As far as the Axtel drawing board, that's not a trick but an illusion prop that would be difficult to build and I would only be able to reveal how it's done. I'm not in the business of just revealing how tricks are done. I'm teaching how to perform certain tricks to those interested in learning magic. I'm not doing it for free, but as part of my new business venture. 2 or 3 magicians having an issue with it is a very small percentage, but not sure of the over-all opinion of the magic community. What would be more influential is if other local magicians in my province had an issue with it. Since we all share the same territory, their opinion weighs more on my decision than just a couple of folks on a magic form who live in a completely different country. But, I can still respect your opinion, and others as well. I learned how to perform the equal/unequal trick from several different books and dvd's. The only difference I see is that my students can learn it face to face in a class room setting, and have an actual mentor to consult with when and if they should Persue magic further. You're right about not running if no one is chasing me. Since no one is chasing me, I have no need to run. I believe I've been respectful to listen to opinions, and have considered them, but in the end I make the final decision. After considerable thought, and weighing the pro's and cons I do not see how teaching this one trick hurts the magic industry as a whole. Considering it is already being taught by several other magicians (who are not the originator) by means of books, dvd's, and downloads. If it was something only the originator was teaching, then it would be something I would not teach out of respect to the originator. I appreciate your time to respond to my question.

I wouldn't teach equal / unequal ropes (PN) to kids in a beginner magic class or workshop, nor sell it as part of my BOR items. I have my own magic kit and other items. I was very specific about what items I chose.

So, my opinion is another voice against the idea, if it matters.

I also don't like the idea of selling appearing wands / canes or magic colouring books as BOR items, but I know performers who do sell those items as BOR items, and I still like them even if I disagree with their BOR choices.

I just don't consider those to be beginner magic tricks. Those are usually items sold / taught to people who have already established themselves as a magic hobbyist.

BTW, I know of some performers who offer a level 1 magic class, and a level 2 magic class. If you pass level 1 in the first summer, you can come back to level 2 the next summer. Level 2 students would not be considered to be beginner magicians.

- Donald

P.S. I own a few of the Fantasma Magic kits that they sell at Costco each Christmas (I've been collecting them for the past 6 or 7 years now), and I can't recall if the PN has been in any of those kits or not. Maybe in the instruction book, but I'm not sure if it was taught on the DVD / online video instructions, and I'm not sure if the ropes were included.

BTW, here's another source for magic class / magic workshop material...

Julian Mather's Magician School YouTube videos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/julianmather1/videos

I mentioned other sources previously on the other threads (the threads that I linked to above), like the Magic Tricks R 4 Kids DVDs and others.

- Donald

What is the purpose of the magic class? Is it simply to occupy the attendees for a specified period? Or is it really to teach them magic?

If the former, any garbage trick will do. Linking paper clips. . . jumping rubber bands . . . the 21 card trick . . . fortune telling fish . . . two card monte . . .

If you are truly teaching magic, then pick something good, where the students are capable of executing the physical motions and where the students are also capable of understanding the psychology/misdirection. I think that PN would be a great first trick to learn. The real work is in the count (and believe me, there are some professional magicians I have seen who had very unconvincing counts). If the students can appreciate that, then they are ready to learn it.

But if you are offering a magic class, then you should teach real magic - sleight of hand. Don't kill the market by "teaching" cr@p magic no professional would use. It is not appropriate to offer a teaching experience and then withhold the good magic (or worse, teach it ineffectively).

My thoughts precisely Opus. Parents will be paying good money for these classes. I assume most of the children will have already been exposed to magic via magic kits. I want them to learn how to be creative, improve their motor skills, build their self esteem, and learn about the history and theory of magic. The last class they will be able to perform a 5-10 minute show for their parents and family members before receiving their certificate.

I highly doubt anyone is going to be teaching any kid how to do something "effectively" in a short pay-for magic class.
Kids just want to know the secrets so they can immediately show everyone, making every possible mistake, even tho you told them to 'practice until perfect'.

There's lots of magic that can be taught without exposing the classics.

Regarding "effective"

There's a lot of thinking that goes into something even as straight-forward as the PN in terms of sleight-of-hand.
There's no way a kid is going to be interested in learning the "proper" way. Most adult magicians don't even care or understand "proper".

That means you're basically teaching a method with so little detail that you're definitely not teaching it effectively and it won't be presented effectively.. meaning you're basically just selling secrets to the classics and re-inforcing the incorrect notion that magic is easy and nothing matters except the secret.



The best thing possible would be to give them something simple to do, essentially self-working, easy to perform, that's entertaining and to give them the ability to present it effectively. Allowing them to get their head up, to look at their audience, communicate effectively and so something that's still magical, would be awesome.

One of those things would be the "disappearing coin from under the hanky" trick. The coin is checked by several members of the audience before the magic even happens, which makes it even stronger. It takes no sleight-of-hand but can be a real fooler.

Any 8 year old could fool a room full of adults with that trick. No 8 year old is going to fool anyone with PN after a weeklong magic class.
Just exposure.

Have you ever taught a magic workshop? My children were able to effectively perform the equal/unequal rope trick within an hour. Not including the fake count. That I don't teach. So were the children I taught in a 3 hour course. My magic workshops I will be teaching now thanks to the great reviews from the parents will be 14 hours long. 2 hours per day for seven days. I've also been in contact with others who teach magic work shops, and not only do I have their blessings, butvI also have their support. The fee I charge is not chump change, so I'm pretty sure parents who enroll their children will expect their money worth. Thanks for your opinion.

Yes I have and basically every kid just wants to show what they learned to anyone that will watch, immediately, no matter how little they've practiced it.
it's just their nature.

if you're not teaching the count, does the trick just end after the ropes are the same size? They just put the trick away at that point?
Or they snap their fingers and they go back to their original size?

I didn't seem to have that problem. Some were a little frustrated at first, but once they got it they were estatic. I had to work more with some than others, but by the end of class they were performing it quite well. It did take up the majority of the class time, but the other tricks were really easy and self working. They were given a few different options for patter to go with the PN trick. In the end, they either brought the ends back up into their hand and pulled each rope out one at at time back to their original size, or held the bottom of the long rope with one hand while with the same hand coming up to grab one end of the small rope, and holding on to the middle rope with their other hand and giving them a shape while separating them. Were they professionals? Of course not. Neither were any of us when we learned our first magic trick. Will any of them accidentally expose it? Perhaps, but so do professionals on rare occassions. That's no reason to teach children magic. When I first began learning magic I was excited as well. I couldn't wait to show someone. Sometimes I screwed it up, but the more I performed it, the better I got. My first trick that was taught to me was the paddle move. I can't count how many times I screwed it up at first, but I kept showing it to people. Eventually I got really good at it.