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TomBoleware
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Oh, and let me add this: While we like to give ‘science’ the credit for getting us where we are today, let’s not forget somewhere behind every great science discovery has been a human being; a real living person who lives somewhere here on earth. It could be someone not far away, the person across town, or maybe the one living next door that is helping make it all happen. So make no mistake about it, science is only as good as the people behind it and without great thinkers and sharp minds science alone would be at a standstill. I say Thank God for good people.


Tom
Take care and by all means, stay inspired.
R.S.
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On Jul 18, 2017, JoeJoe wrote:
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On Jul 18, 2017, ed rhodes wrote:
Think of the scale of us to the universe. It's up there with the scale of us to a microbe in our body. Can the microbe communicate with us or us with the microbe? Even if we accept consciousness on this scale, the GALAXY wouldn't be aware of us, much less the Universe.


Yes, microbes communicate using chemical signals. ... Bacteria can produce chemical signals ("talk") and other bacteria can respond to them ("listen") in a process commonly known as cell-cell communication or cell-cell signaling. This is proven.

Virus' "talk" to humans by making us sick, when something attacks you you "listen" and "hear" and become aware of it's presence. It is not a question of do they speak English, the question is what language does the virus speak?

Dogs speak with barks, trees speak with their roots, plants speak through their scents and flavors ... every living thing on this planet communicates if you pay attention. When my strawberry plants start wilting they are telling me they need water.

If the universe is indeed 'conscious', how can we hear it? What does it say? To whom? Talking of scales, certainly the flea can figure out the dog is barking at the cat?

-JoeJoe


My car is "sexy", and my house "welcomes" me when I get home each day. All the world's a metaphor, JoeJoe. Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On Jul 18, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Hey Ron, sorry for just now getting back. Just read it all and enjoying the exchange between you and Lobo. Thanks to you both.


Quote:
On Jul 16, 2017, R.S. wrote:

Thanks Tom. What do you feel is the single most convincing piece of evidence in support of a designer?

Ron



Billy Graham was asked that same question once and he responded that while he could think of many evidences for the existence of God, "the most important one can be put into two words: Jesus Christ." He went on to say, “the reason is because once you understand who Jesus really is you'll never doubt God's existence again.” I personally have to agree with him. But that is getting into religion a little much so let me say this:


Tom, thanks for responding. I agree, this is may be veering off a little too much (and I would love to continue this privately, if you wish – it’s up to you). But let me say this about this comment you made here; Isn’t this a circular argument? Isn’t Jesus just God incarnate? So what does it mean to say that you need to know/understand God in order to believe in God? If you asked someone who believed in Leprechauns what they felt was the most convincing evidence in support of Leprechauns and they responded with, “Once you understand who Leprechauns really are you’ll never doubt their existence again”, would that convince YOU that Leprechauns exist?


Quote:
When I look at how the earth is made, how it is positioned in the right spot, how it provides us with food, water, air, etc, and when I see how nature seems to take care of all the little creatures. I can’t help but believe that it was designed that way. Sure science may explain many of the ‘how’ questions but that doesn’t answer the ‘why.’ I say it’s the way it is for a reason.


What do you think a world NOT designed would look like? Suppose there is no designer and nature and evolution took it’s course “unguided.” How would things be different than we see them now? (these aren’t rhetorical questions – please give this some thought and answer as best as you can)

And just because there may not (yet) be an answer for a ‘why’ question doesn’t mean another pet answer automatically wins. Would YOU be convinced if someone else told you that the reason that Earth is positioned just right and nature takes care of it’s creatures is because Cosmic Magical Pixies made it that way?

Quote:
And look how our brain operates, it’s a super computer. And what about our DNA. Bill Gates once said, “DNA is like a software program, only much more complex than anything we’ve ever devised”


I’m not sure what your point is here. We can look at any number of things in nature/biology/technology and draw comparisons.
And what about the vestigial organs of the human body? Why is nobody pointing to those and inferring a designer?

Quote:
And what about the widespread desire to learn more about a higher power? Where does that desire come from?


Not knowing where something comes from is not an argument in favor of something else. Anyway, could centuries of religious inculcation have something to do with an interest in "higher powers"? Besides, humans are naturally curious. Do you think that in a purely naturalistic universe with no designer, humans would have no curiosity/desire whatsoever to learn about the origins of the universe?


Quote:
Still, believing in a designer requires faith, and having faith is a choice. We all can choose to ‘trust’ without knowing all the facts. Religious faith is trusting and acting upon God's promises concerning things we have not yet seen. It is not really blind faith either like some call it. I believe in lots of things I have never seen. I believe in radio waves, magnetic fields, and other planets out there millions of miles away. That's faith. If someone I ‘trust’ tells me that if I'll walk to the top of the next hill I'll be able to see the spot which I am looking for, I will likely believe it and start walking. I will have assurance even though I have not seen it with my own eyes. That's faith.

Not only can faith move mountains, it can provide you with all the answers you need.



Can someone also use faith to believe in Leprechauns? Or Cosmic Magical Pixies? Having faith in those things is a choice, just like the choice to have faith in the designer that you believe in, right?

The things you mentioned (radio waves, magnetic fields, planets) can all be DEMONSTRATED. We can produce radio waves and magnetic fields and see/manipulate their effects. And we can see other planets through telescopes, calculate their orbits, measure their gravitational effects, etc. That’s the OPPOSITE of believing something on faith.

Do you think faith can provide reliable and consistent answers that everybody could agree on? If people can arrive at different conclusions using faith as their epistemology, would you see that as problematic? If someone can use faith to conclude that one designer exists, and someone else can use faith to conclude that multiple designers exist, how do we know who is correct?

Again, thanks Tom. I look forward to your responses.Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On Jul 18, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Oh, and let me add this: While we like to give ‘science’ the credit for getting us where we are today, let’s not forget somewhere behind every great science discovery has been a human being; a real living person who lives somewhere here on earth. It could be someone not far away, the person across town, or maybe the one living next door that is helping make it all happen. So make no mistake about it, science is only as good as the people behind it and without great thinkers and sharp minds science alone would be at a standstill. I say Thank God for good people.


Tom


Does God also get the blame for the "bad" people?? Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
TomBoleware
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Hey Ron,

If science can’t explain it, how in the world do you expect me to? Smile

In a run today but will get with you. Thanks.


Oh and Ron, do you really believe EVERYTHING came from a huge piece of hot rock? All the ants, bugs, grasshoppers, cows and people just came crawling out. LOL A joke yes, but it is something to think about.

Tom
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landmark
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Quote:
On Jul 19, 2017, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 18, 2017, JoeJoe wrote:

Yes, microbes communicate using chemical signals. ... Bacteria can produce chemical signals ("talk") and other bacteria can respond to them ("listen") in a process commonly known as cell-cell communication or cell-cell signaling. This is proven.

Virus' "talk" to humans by making us sick, when something attacks you you "listen" and "hear" and become aware of it's presence. It is not a question of do they speak English, the question is what language does the virus speak?

Dogs speak with barks, trees speak with their roots, plants speak through their scents and flavors ... every living thing on this planet communicates if you pay attention. When my strawberry plants start wilting they are telling me they need water.

If the universe is indeed 'conscious', how can we hear it? What does it say? To whom? Talking of scales, certainly the flea can figure out the dog is barking at the cat?

-JoeJoe


My car is "sexy", and my house "welcomes" me when I get home each day. All the world's a metaphor, JoeJoe. Smile

Ron


@Ron:

Communication involves exchanges of information between two parts of a system which then releases stored energy within one of the parts.

We can kick a billiard ball to get it to go to the other side of the room. See what happens when you try to do the same by kicking a person. Yet communicate nicely with the person, and its quite possible the person will go to the other side of the room. Very different result from f=ma.

Or tell a person his or her mother has died. With minimal expenditure of energy on your part, you start a complicated physical, mental, and emotional reaction in the other person. With just a few words. Amazing.

This is what we mean by communication between living entities. Quite different expectations from Newtonian cause and effect physics when you have systems with feedback loops and stored energy.

I don't think looking for the "language" of the universe is such a silly project at all. I think that's what religions in some sense have tried to do throughout our stay here. Karma, golden rule, prayer, holy books, psychedelic rituals are all attempts at this in my opinion.
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet"--Abraham Lincoln

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R.S.
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On Jul 19, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Hey Ron,

If science can’t explain it, how in the world do you expect me to? Smile


Hi Tom. What are you referring to that science can’t explain?

Quote:
In a run today but will get with you. Thanks.


Oh and Ron, do you really believe EVERYTHING came from a huge piece of hot rock? All the ants, bugs, grasshoppers, cows and people just came crawling out. LOL A joke yes, but it is something to think about.



Is this a question on evolution or abiogenesis?

If it’s a question about evolution, then yes, I accept the fact of evolution (until such time as it is overturned, in which case I’ll toss it out like yesterday’s newspaper – but don’t hold your breath for that Smile). If it’s a question about abiogenesis, then I don’t know (nor does anybody else) how living matter arose from non-living matter. Although we may have the answer some day. In fact, some scientists are fairly confident we’ll be able to create life from scratch in the lab within the next century. With all the advances being made these days, it wouldn’t surprise me. That being said, and it seems I can’t say this enough, NOT KNOWING THE ANSWER TO SOMETHING DOESN’T JUSTIFY INSERTING YOUR PET THEORY AS AN EXPLANATION. Long ago before we knew that the Earth rotated, many people “explained” the Sun’s movement by claiming that the Greek God “Helios” drove the Sun across the sky each day in his chariot. They had no idea about planetary processes. But they sure liked the idea of a chariot-assisted Sun driver. And before we knew that electrical misfirings in the brain caused epileptic seizures, some thought that the victims were possessed by demons, and in some cases were treated harshly in an effort to "expel the demons". Do you see how they were unjustified in making their claims? The time to believe something is when there is sufficient and compelling evidence to believe it. Not before. And certainly not because the idea meshes with your preferred worldview.

Ron Smile
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jul 19, 2017, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 19, 2017, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 18, 2017, JoeJoe wrote:

Yes, microbes communicate using chemical signals. ... Bacteria can produce chemical signals ("talk") and other bacteria can respond to them ("listen") in a process commonly known as cell-cell communication or cell-cell signaling. This is proven.

Virus' "talk" to humans by making us sick, when something attacks you you "listen" and "hear" and become aware of it's presence. It is not a question of do they speak English, the question is what language does the virus speak?

Dogs speak with barks, trees speak with their roots, plants speak through their scents and flavors ... every living thing on this planet communicates if you pay attention. When my strawberry plants start wilting they are telling me they need water.

If the universe is indeed 'conscious', how can we hear it? What does it say? To whom? Talking of scales, certainly the flea can figure out the dog is barking at the cat?

-JoeJoe


My car is "sexy", and my house "welcomes" me when I get home each day. All the world's a metaphor, JoeJoe. Smile

Ron


@Ron:

Communication involves exchanges of information between two parts of a system which then releases stored energy within one of the parts.

We can kick a billiard ball to get it to go to the other side of the room. See what happens when you try to do the same by kicking a person. Yet communicate nicely with the person, and its quite possible the person will go to the other side of the room. Very different result from f=ma.

Or tell a person his or her mother has died. With minimal expenditure of energy on your part, you start a complicated physical, mental, and emotional reaction in the other person. With just a few words. Amazing.

This is what we mean by communication between living entities. Quite different expectations from Newtonian cause and effect physics when you have systems with feedback loops and stored energy.

I don't think looking for the "language" of the universe is such a silly project at all. I think that's what religions in some sense have tried to do throughout our stay here. Karma, golden rule, prayer, holy books, psychedelic rituals are all attempts at this in my opinion.


Thanks Landmark. Good stuff. I’m also all for understanding the universe. And I understand how communication works. But JoeJoe has gone a bit astray in his zeal to establish “giant planetary brains”, and a “conscience universe”, imo.

And no great advance in our understanding of the universe has ever come from Karma, golden rule, prayer, holy books, and psychedelic rituals. Those advances have come from scientific endeavors.

Ron Smile
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jul 19, 2017, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 18, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Oh, and let me add this: While we like to give ‘science’ the credit for getting us where we are today, let’s not forget somewhere behind every great science discovery has been a human being; a real living person who lives somewhere here on earth. It could be someone not far away, the person across town, or maybe the one living next door that is helping make it all happen. So make no mistake about it, science is only as good as the people behind it and without great thinkers and sharp minds science alone would be at a standstill. I say Thank God for good people.


Tom


Does God also get the blame for the "bad" people?? Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
S2000magician
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On Jul 16, 2017, JoeJoe wrote:
In computer games, a pseudorandom number is based on a formula and a seed . . . .

Fixed that for you.
S2000magician
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On Jul 17, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
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On Jul 17, 2017, landmark wrote:
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Here are a few questions science can't answer. And we have wonderful (non-scientific) resources for dealing with them.
1. Is sqrt(2) rational?

No. Pretty well-known mathematical proof for that:

http://www.homeschoolmath.net/teaching/p......onal.php

Unless you're excluding math when you speak of science.

Of course I am. There is nothing empirical about the proof. No theory. Nothing even remotely scientific.

Mathematics is the Queen of the sciences . . .

(. . . and number theory is the Queen of mathematics.)


- Carl Gauss

Personally, I'm inclined to trust Gauss' opinion.

Quote:
On Jul 17, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
No theory.

Coming from you, I find this statement shocking.

You're not given to making preposterous statements, John, but that's exactly what this is.

First, you need a definition of the integers; enter Peano's axioms.

Then you need a definition of addition of integers, then multiplication of integers.

Then you need the definition of a prime number, the uniqueness of prime factorization, and either the closure of the set of even numbers under multiplication or the fact that if a prime divides a product, then it must divide at least one of the factors in that product.

These are all fundamental parts of number theory. It's called number theory for a reason.

Seriously, John: I'm shocked.
S2000magician
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On Jul 21, 2017, S2000magician wrote:
. . . you need a definition of addition of integers, then multiplication of integers.

Then you need a definition of rational numbers, then a definition of addition of rational numbers and a definition of multiplication of rational numbers (which have to be consistent with the definitions of integers, addition of integers, and multiplication of integers, respectively).

Then you need the definition of a prime number . . . .

Forgot a bit in there.
landmark
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I think John's position is something like this: Math can be a construct of the brain, with no correlation to the physical world. The definitions, axioms and postulates of math are essentially arbitrary. It's only through science--the process of hypothesizing, testing, and verifying--that we find out whether these constructs have any application to the known world.

I put my position forward earlier in the Mathematical Structure thread, which may be a better place to debate this particular point.
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet"--Abraham Lincoln

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