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ViolinKing Veteran user a loyal user has no more than 307 Posts |
Dick, everyone has suffered from "INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE" at one point or another.
Now, since I have been reading this thread and reading a few books about performance, I wonder when some magician or other is going to come out with a book on how to be a human being. I don't object to it. If you have real life wisdom that extends beyond magic then out with it. If the tricks don't matter and the performer does, then when will some kind magician step up and tell us what the key aspects of being human are. The wisdom in "Maximum Entertainment" starts to sound like life advice, if considered from that perspective. So do some of your comments in this thread, Dick. So the question then, is: Are we here talking about magic or are we talking about some kind of life philosophy, or attitude to have towards life? Because Deek wanted a few routines and your comments included: "WE do not need you, you need US." What kind of grand standard do you use to judge who is worthy of magic and who is not? I am asking because it is obvious you have a lot of experience and I would like to be on the list of people who get it. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
My guess is that post took you off the list. I could be wrong.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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ViolinKing Veteran user a loyal user has no more than 307 Posts |
Dannydoyle:
I wasn't being sarcastic in that post. I'm not suggesting that magicians don't behave like human beings, I'm suggesting that magicians like Dick and others writing books about entertainment, almost seem to write about how to present yourself... in life. If anything, my post was incredulous. When I wrote "grand standard" I was not trying to shut anyone up, I really want to know what the standards are. Put yourself in my shoes. I thought everyone was on this forum just to discuss magic and occasionally discuss the news. But when Dick writes something like "You'd be a fool to try and learn new tricks in a month's time" well, I want to know what he is getting at. Is there something more to magic than just performing tricks? If so, what is it? I want to know. So please know that I am not being sarcastic. I am being blunt and nasty, that is true, and I apologize. I sent Dick a PM apologizing. And you are right, there is a possibility that I can't wipe that slate clean. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Is there more to magic than just preforming tricks? Is there more to singing than knowing the words?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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simplymagicweb Inner circle Norfolk, UK 1410 Posts |
Going back to the original question of what to perform to groups and perhaps at a table, here’s one of my fav coin routines which is essentially multiphased, and is full of audience participation. I do this at all my functions. I’d love to see some other performance clips too of other members in the group...
https://youtu.be/80jEfFpAW7s Hope you like it!
Magically,
Website - www.simplymagic.co.uk Twitter - www.twitter.com/simplymagic19 Facebook - www.facebook.com/SeanGoodmanMagician Creator of BDZ, Holidayz, The Grayle, DUO, Secret Servante, Genetics, Vision, Tick Tock, Starstruck, CelebriDate, MagiDate, Focus, SIGMA and R2R |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
I didn't have time to watch all of it. (I'll get back later.) I did like what I had time to see!!!)
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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TheRealMagicMike Regular user Las Vegas, NV 178 Posts |
ViolinKing: The real magic happens not with the tricks you do (assuming you're competent), but with your connection with the audience (whether it be an audience of 1 or 1,000). Some people "connect" through humor, some with sincerity, some with the stories they tell, some being "charmingly abrasive" (think Don Rickles) and a host of other ways that are dictated by the performers personality and style.
I suppose the next logical question would be, what is "connection"? I think of it as conducting yourself in such a way (performing) that allows the audience to relax, "let their guard down" if you will and enjoy the show. "Connection" is where they enjoy YOU as much or more than the "magic". Connection is where they identify and appreciate the "real" you... even if the "real you" is the persona or character you have developed. And, let me add... its a feeling that the audience gets that you are genuinely interested in entertaining them. I'm not even close to being the best magician even on this thread... but I'm certainly competent and I've been able to build a fairly long career in magic by 1. being able to "connect with people" and 2. concentrating on marketing at least as much as my magic. I know Dick mentions in a lot of posts about "entertainment" over "the trick"... it can be frustrating because it is profound in its simplicity; he has learned the "real secret of magic" over many years of performing, yet, even he would probably be hard-pressed to give a simple 3 step process for connecting with an audience. If you constantly evaluate your performances and start being more aware of "connection" or "lack of connection", (and make adjustments), you will be well on your way to being one of those "in the know". (of course, all of the above is just my opinion... but there is a good bit of experience behind it to back it up). |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I think it can be summed up with the following sentiment. I have mentioned it before and it is as true as ever. A magician gets paid for his skills with people, not his skills with objects.
Pete Townsend put it well in the Who song "Join Together". "It's the singer not the song, that makes the music move along". See you can have all the magic skills in the world and be the best at everything possible and good for you. But if you can't manage to make people care about why you are doing it then it is meaningless. I am not saying it to be mean or obnoxious or put anyone down. It is just how it is. Now I am not saying you don't need skills with objects. Actually quite the opposite. I am saying those skills should be a given. Doing the effects well should be tee starting point. And similarly this is only my opinion.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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simplymagicweb Inner circle Norfolk, UK 1410 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 15, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote: Oh Danny, what an absolutely SPOT ON comment! Totally agree. It’s all about how you make people feel - they are the stars not you.
Magically,
Website - www.simplymagic.co.uk Twitter - www.twitter.com/simplymagic19 Facebook - www.facebook.com/SeanGoodmanMagician Creator of BDZ, Holidayz, The Grayle, DUO, Secret Servante, Genetics, Vision, Tick Tock, Starstruck, CelebriDate, MagiDate, Focus, SIGMA and R2R |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
MeetMagicMike's term, "connection" summed up the point, very well!
Indeed! Danny has phrased it very well, and, SimplyMagicWeb added the 'frosting on the cake! I had to delve into my file of "wise sayings", as I couldn't remember the whole quote "verbatim"! MAYA ANGELOU, wrote: "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but, people will never forget how you made them feel." That quotation has been one of my "guides" for years. Perhaps, if more "magicians" understood that bit of philosophy and, "made it happen", in their performance, magic would rank higher on the show business ladder!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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ViolinKing Veteran user a loyal user has no more than 307 Posts |
TheRealMagicMike
Quote:
I know Dick mentions in a lot of posts about "entertainment" over "the trick"... it can be frustrating because it is profound in its simplicity; That is starting to sink in. On the one hand I was very angry at Dick for not simply giving out the secrets to Deek. (Or, rather, what I thought the secrets should be.) On the other hand, I realized that there was nothing I could do to help Deek. As I was driving around the other day, after writing what I did, I realized that I don't know how to go about putting together a magic trick. A lot of grand ideas parade around in my head and I begin to get an impression of what a great magic trick would be. I think about the aesthetic look I want to have. I like simple objects, so I begin by thinking about objects I think are nice to look at. Then, almost instantaneously I seem to be bogged down with the problems of how to ditch objects, how to sneak them into my hands, etc. Its almost instantaneous. I have never been able to, on my own, simply create an excellent piece of magic. So I have no right to get angry at Dick, since I myself don't know the answers to Deek's question. (Well, I wasn't actually angry at Dick, but confused about what he was getting at, and very adamant to get an answer, to the point of being nasty.) |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Hello Violin King!
We are making progress!! Good! I know that learning about magic can be a bit frustrating! There is so much to learn, besides "how tricks are done"! It would help, if you study "Maskelynne & Devant, Dariel Fitzkee, Ken Weber, Henning Nelms,Harlan Tarbell, and, especially, DALE CARNEGIE'S! "HOW TO WIN FRIENDS & INFLUENCE PEOPLE" (Carnegie, doesn't talk about magic! He talks about human relations!) His book "rivals" the Bible in sales! Any public library will have copies. Actually, as you are probably beginning to realize, I WAS "giving out the secrets" to Deak. But, IMO, he didn't want to hear them! The late Dariel Fitzkee "says", in his "The Trick Brain", pp308-309, "I must insist that tricks are but tools. This eagerness to add new tools to the workshop, at the expense of learning how to use the tools we already possess, definitely results in overcrowded workshops, but unskilled artisans." The late S.H. Sharpe, was far from the "world's greatest performer", but, he understood a great "secret", when he wrote, years ago, "Those who think that magic consists of doing tricks, are strangers to magic. Tricks are only the crude residue from which the lifeblood of magic has been drained." Deak was, IMO, being invincibly ignorant. IMO, he just wanted to learn some tricks, so he could be the magician at the party! Read his own words in the thread! (He often sat in the detention room in school.) Leonardo Da Vinci said it very well, when he wrote: "Those who give themselves to ready practice before they have learned the theory, resemble sailors who go to sea in a ship without a rudder." Kaliix, lashed out at me, for not just giving Deak, the "short cuts". I don't mentor, like that! You can ask Colton Raelund about THAT! (The man who knows "how" usually works FOR, the man who knows "why".) Yup! I WAS giving Deak the "secrets", and, you are beginning to realize that! (THAT'S GOOD!) At this point, I would recommend that you don't get too "concerned", because you don't know how to help Deak. Actually, IMO, YOU can't help him, at this point! There's an old Latin "wise saying": "Nemo dat quod non habet." (No one can give what he does not have.) You, CARE! --and, that's good, but you can't give what you don't have! However, I think that you have intellectual curiosity, and, with some study, you will begin to understand. Before a student can study "quantum physics", he must learn "basic math"! Tarbell is available FREE (!) in pdf. That's a good place to start. Most of my show (the tricks!) which helped me make a living since I was a teenager in the "40s, "came" from Tarbell! --of course, I adapted the presentations! (Tarbell's course was first written in 1927, and, the PATTER AND PRESENTATIONS, are now somewhat archaic, but the PRINCIPLES are there!) I'm happy that you weren't really angry, just confused! I hope that these thoughts have helped to clear up, at least some, of the confusion! Feel free to PM me. I'm retired, but, I keep BUSY. It might take a "day or three", before I have time to reply, but, I'll try to share experiences! The "flag is up"! (In the circus, that means, breakfast is being served in the cookhouse!) I'm heading that way!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Mark Boody Illusionist Inner circle 1366 Posts |
This post should be a college course on how to be an entertainer!
One of the most enjoyable threads I have read in a long time (even though it had some "rough" spots). Thank you Dick for sharing the "true" secrets of magic!!! Mark
Only he who can see the invisible can do the impossible. Frank L. Gaines
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I want to add one thing to all this.
Someones magicians think it is a choice between being entertaining and having skills. Having the skills should be thought of as a given. It is not a choice. The effects are not unimportant. We are just assuming that if you call yourself s magician you have that covered.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3501 Posts |
Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
Having the skills should be thought of as a given. It is not a choice. The effects are not unimportant. We are just assuming that if you call yourself s magician you have that covered. This is a very well stated clarification. I was cringing when people said the tricks are not important. Of course they are. |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Sorry Mike, Tricks are merely the VEHICLES which we magicians use to, hopefully, ENTERTAIN, people.
I served on the committee at the annual auditions for a half dozen agencies which booked school assembly programs all over the USA, for many years. We had every conceivable type of program, which schools would book, auditioning each year. You would, no doubt be surprised at the number of "magicians" who would audition, and, would never receive an offer of a contract. Some arrived backstage with an attache case containing a half dozen "hand props. Some arrived with a van full of "illusions". It wasn't the tricks that they performed. It was their PRESENTATION! >>>>>>It wasn't WHAT they did, it was HOW they did it!<<<<<.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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cbguy Veteran user 350 Posts |
Dick is 110% correct!!!
My opinion has always been that Magic is nothing more than a stupid puzzle. Magic is interesting to no one, other than people who like to solve puzzles or magicians who get off on magical master bastion. No one cares about magic. They only care about having fun, through the personality and presentation of the performer. |
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Mary Mowder Inner circle Sacramento / Elk Grove, CA 3659 Posts |
Really?
I'm certainly saying that the Entertainer is the most important aspect ... But good tricks ARE important. I'm always in search of a better method if I like the effect but don't like the method. Some tricks ARE better than others. They make better use of our brains willingness to lead us down the wrong path, they are harder to back track, they are simple and elegant or perhaps easier to do or carry. Dick and I have both given advice on how to choose a good trick to add to your repertoire. More than one thing can be important. We live in a nuanced world. When anyone starts with a 110% statement I start to wonder about the rest of their opinion. LOL -Mary Mowder |
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cbguy Veteran user 350 Posts |
I'm 110% sure Mary is right! : )
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Mary Mowder Inner circle Sacramento / Elk Grove, CA 3659 Posts |
Wait a second, let me do the math.....
Doh! |
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