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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
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On Sep 8, 2017, Nicolino wrote: I never said "Doing a double under-cut instead of a normal cut is worth to be considered as threshold of originality" , so please don't put words in my mouth. We were asked by Andrew about differences between the two. As you quoted, I said Docc updated the cutting sequence, which he did. The Christ routine collects the cards from each participant and appears to cut them to the bottom of the pile each time, keeping each persons cards together. Then the cards are dealt. Docc provides a different cutting sequence that appears to mix the cards, and does an additional mixing at the end so it appears the cards are mixed. A simple addition, an obvious additional method, and it makes a difference in disguising the methodology. Tony |
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Nicolino Inner circle 2893 Posts |
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On Sep 8, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote: Really, did I? Sorry if it came across like I was putting words in your mouth. My point is: everyone who defends this rip-off as legitimate must ascribe it a certain threshold of originality, which there isn't in my opinion. It's one thing if you feel you spent your $10 well, but it still is a copy of someone else's oeuvre.
The Mati Envelope
A brandnew peek device for the working mentalist! Chance's Token Tarot cards in a scenic piece of mystery..... |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
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On Sep 8, 2017, Nicolino wrote: Perhaps you missed the part where I agreed with Tom who stated it was "97%" the same as the Christ material. Or perhaps you missed where I said this: "I just read the Christ write-up and technically the routine is near identical. In fact a few of the comments made by Docc are almost identical to some lines printed in the JINX in 1938. " I realize it is easy to miss what people say when you want to lambast them for what you want to think they said. Docc should have credited Christ, there is no doubt to that. It is Christ's routine. He did add to it, update where it was needed and create a presentation for it. And if Docc had not performed this, Christ's work would not be being talked about now. But that does not excuse not giving proper credit. |
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Nicolino Inner circle 2893 Posts |
Tony, I didn't miss your previous statements. And obviously we both agree it's a Christ routine. And not a Hilford routine. So all well.
Again: I didn't address you specifically. I was addressing those who "defend this rip-off as legitimate".
The Mati Envelope
A brandnew peek device for the working mentalist! Chance's Token Tarot cards in a scenic piece of mystery..... |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 8, 2017, Nicolino wrote: I would be in, and was in that camp until Andrew posted and I read the Christ routine. I know I have read the routine in the past as I have read the JINX and the Card Magic book cover to cover, but I did not recall the routine when I saw Docc's performance. Perhaps it is the difference between recalling the written word and a visual performance. The routine is great, it is a testament to Henry, his 80 year old routine plays just as well today as it did in the 1930s, maybe better. But I still say it is well worth the purchase price to see the routine performed and the nuances that Docc added. I just wish he had properly credited it. Tony |
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12938 Posts |
I'm sure this isn't the first time this (rip off) has ever happened in this biz. Is it?
So, this can be done with two people? I guess I should try. |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
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On Sep 8, 2017, John C wrote: Nope, an 80 year old routine that is in public domain, it is easy to forget where it came from. No excuse though. John, deal out 4 hands, have the 2 people each select a hand and peek at a card in that hand, collect them up as per the instructions, and do the routine as described. it works for anywhere between 1 and 4 people this way. BTW, I hope you are evacuated. Stay safe! Tony |
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Nicolino Inner circle 2893 Posts |
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On Sep 8, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote: Absolutely. Don't want to even imagine how many pearls are yet to discovered which I have read but not done justice yet.
The Mati Envelope
A brandnew peek device for the working mentalist! Chance's Token Tarot cards in a scenic piece of mystery..... |
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1KJ Inner circle Warning: We will run out of new tricks in 4385 Posts |
While I was familiar with the simpler version of this effect, I was not familiar with, nor thought of the additions that Docc shared. There is so much magic in history that sometimes magic gets lost and someone re-invents the wheel, so to speak. I would think that is the case with Docc and this one.
Non-the-less, I really appreciate learning this and I wouldn't have found it in some obscure volume of Jinx. I'll leave it up to Docc and whomever from the past to work out their details. I, for one, will definitely be using this one, and thank Docc for giving it new life. KJ |
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jerry100won Loyal user Dallas Texas 258 Posts |
Just purchased this. Have a set of poker nice chips and been looking for a routine where I could showcase them.
This is a great effect and I also will be definitely using this one!!!
Jerry
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. - THOMAS JEFFERSON |
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magicthree Special user 619 Posts |
It is a great trick but it is pretty much the Henry Christ effect. If you have the Annemann book, look it up.
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Schaff New user Fargo, ND 75 Posts |
Pow! Good thing I'm not looking for any new friends lol.
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12938 Posts |
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On Sep 8, 2017, Nicolino wrote: Doesn't Ric Lax at Penguin do this stuff quite frequently. I've found several tricks he's come out with that are copies of others and changed a little. |
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1KJ Inner circle Warning: We will run out of new tricks in 4385 Posts |
Most all magic is taking something someone else has done and tweeking it a bit, OR taking something nearly lost to history and giving it new life. Nothing wrong with that.
Rick Lax, IMO, has done a wonderful job of bringing new life to some old ideas. KJ |
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Max Hazy Special user 543 Posts |
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On Sep 10, 2017, 1KJ wrote: I completely disagree, specially in the present case. Not only it is pretty much exactly the same thing but done with a different cut and using chips instead of coins but also, there's no credit given to it. Furthermore, "tweeking it a bit" is not enough, no. Following your criteria I have yet a different cut for this routine (cleaner and more fooling) and I could suggest another prop for another presentation (e.g gemstones) to sell it with another name... and I bet Docc would be upset about it (yet I haven't seem he speak anything on the subject).
"Your method is in my opinion the very best way to do Q&A"
Millard Longman "Max has pushed some less known and seldom used principles a huge step forward" Jan Forster Arcane Grimoires Vol 1- http://www.maxhazy.com/arcane-grimoires/apocryphal-reach/ Arcane Grimoires Vol 2- http://www.maxhazy.com/Codex-Mentis/ |
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RLFrame Elite user 447 Posts |
"Every 10 or 12 years brings in a new 'crop' of magically minded people, a new generation. Exactly as in the past, and undoubtedly like in the future, the demand is for tricks, tricks , tricks, and not more than 2% of the devotees show any interest in the history of magic or what has gone before. 'What's NEW?' is the cry. Tell them about material in old books and magazines and they get a glazed look. SHOW them a trick without telling its date of origination and they immediately clamor for it. Print such a trick and the reviewers, who steep themselves in the lore of the ages, to which present day fans have little access, shout 'old stuff ' 'just a rehash.'
"Reviewers..." go "overboard in their condemnation, generally to the extent that they forget to review the trick's possibilities regardless of age. If any of the commentators ever started doing a trick after some professional dug it out of near oblivion, some trick they undoubtedly would have called 'old' and in their calling must have known it but passed it by, they'll perhaps know what I am trying to say." Theodore Annemann "The Jinx" December 9, 1939. |
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truman Special user 635 Posts |
Do I understand correctly that the Henry Christ, J. B. Bobo, and John Mendoza effects are all essentially the same? If so, and if Christ was first, did Bobo or Mendoza credit him (or anyone else for that matter)? I purchased Junky, and I'm quite happy that I did. Docc's performance is fun to watch, and he has a gift for explaining things clearly.
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Max Hazy Special user 543 Posts |
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On Sep 10, 2017, truman wrote: No. Junky and Mental Stud are essentially the same. It's one thing to use the same principle... and another to do the same thing (same actions, same moves, same display, same props).
"Your method is in my opinion the very best way to do Q&A"
Millard Longman "Max has pushed some less known and seldom used principles a huge step forward" Jan Forster Arcane Grimoires Vol 1- http://www.maxhazy.com/arcane-grimoires/apocryphal-reach/ Arcane Grimoires Vol 2- http://www.maxhazy.com/Codex-Mentis/ |
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Nicolino Inner circle 2893 Posts |
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On Sep 10, 2017, truman wrote: For a mere $5.95 you get 60 brilliant (and original!) effects by such legendary cardmen as Dai Vernon, Dr. Jacob Daley, Eddie Clever, Audley Walsh, Henry Christ, Charles Jordan, John Scarne, Leo Horowitz, Walter Gibson, Orville Meyer, Ted Annemann and other. For $15 you get one single effect, devised and scripted by one of the above. Does that sound right?
The Mati Envelope
A brandnew peek device for the working mentalist! Chance's Token Tarot cards in a scenic piece of mystery..... |
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Max Hazy Special user 543 Posts |
Nicolino, we must remember there are different aspects between a DVD/video and a book (specially e-book) that will affect the cost of production. But I agree with you, there's a lot wrong here.
"Your method is in my opinion the very best way to do Q&A"
Millard Longman "Max has pushed some less known and seldom used principles a huge step forward" Jan Forster Arcane Grimoires Vol 1- http://www.maxhazy.com/arcane-grimoires/apocryphal-reach/ Arcane Grimoires Vol 2- http://www.maxhazy.com/Codex-Mentis/ |
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