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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Fellowship of Christian Magicians! » » I'm sure it's been asked b4? (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

paul180
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How do we as Christians justify, lying for a living or just when doing our illusions?

True story! When first being introduced to Christ, I thought doing the "ticket to heaven trick" would be kinda nice to do for some children of my pastor. I used the patter that I had received my ticket to heaven and was so excited. After the reveil of the cross and hell spelled out the pastor's daughter said "so you didn't get a ticket?" I said "no dear that comes when we are saved and not in paper form" She replied without hesitation " that means your just a liar. My heart sank and I put down magic for 3 years, until recently picking it back up again.

I'm still finding it hard to perform, even for friends and I was once a pro performer. Anyway I'm sure this has been discussed at nausea but I wanted to share my story and read your feedback. Magicians helping magicians and all.
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a foolish man can learn from a wise answer.

Attributing negativity to a topic or post doesn't make the topic or post negative,
it shines a light on the negativity of the person or persons, making the attributions.

BEWARE these Debbie downers and anything they say. They simply lack the self esteem or good will, to be positive or productive. Your belief in self, is more
important and is all that matters, for your success to be glorious.
jamiedoyle
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Having been in children's ministries for over 20+ years as my full-time occupation, I can tell you that one will always encounter children who only want to "one-up" you regardless if you do a magic trick, tell a story, use an object lesson, etc. By her logic, she would need to call Jesus a liar since He used metaphorical language in His parables. I would be curious to know if there were other encounters like the one you experienced in your story? If not: don't let that discourage you from embracing an effective method for teaching the gospel... If there were other similar encounters: then, perhaps you would need to re-frame or re-phrase some of the patter.

I always make sure children know I'm speaking in metaphors/similes when I am using an illustrative method, regardless of the method. I also re-remind them at the conclusion with something like: "I love doing these cool tricks so we all learn! Did you know that Jesus does something REAL in our lives? The handkerchiefs changed to help us understand that idea..."

Be of good cheer my friend!
Jamie Doyle

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paul180
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I'm not really a Gospel type performer and my background is more in busking and mentalism but I hear you and will consider your words. Thank you.
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a foolish man can learn from a wise answer.

Attributing negativity to a topic or post doesn't make the topic or post negative,
it shines a light on the negativity of the person or persons, making the attributions.

BEWARE these Debbie downers and anything they say. They simply lack the self esteem or good will, to be positive or productive. Your belief in self, is more
important and is all that matters, for your success to be glorious.
jamiedoyle
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Don't take what I've said as harsh criticism -- I don't know you and only want to elevate the art of Gospel Magic Smile
Jamie Doyle

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Ed_Millis
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I know when my kids were growing up, I told them stories to illustrate certain things. I never felt like a liar.
I have done tricks in a children's church setting. One led to my own daughter's prayer. Didn't feel like a liar.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that *you* did not feel like you were lying - until that child spoke that word.
As Jamie pointed out, Jesus Himself used stories in the NT, and the prophets are full of them as well.

Lying is meant to deceive in a hurtful way.
We illustrate truths that take someone closer to Jesus.

Unfortunately, some children either can't wrap their minds around these concepts, or just want to stomp on the performer.
I've been in front of both!!

The biggest thing that has rescued me in these situations is being fully confident of my position on this.
I can explain anything to a reasonable person, and know I'm in the right.
An unreasonable child, though, can throw your whole day off!

Ed
jamiedoyle
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I agree with Ed on his points
Jamie Doyle

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Payne
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Study the work of Jerry Andrus. He never lied when performing magic.

At least that's what he told people
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Russo
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Opening our program with the Spot Card, then quote 2nd Corinthians 4:2 -- though my "living Bible' uses the phrase "I'm not here to TRICK You." Other Translations use the words-deceit-craftiness-etc- - Then explain that we use effects to illustrate verses - like our SundaySchool Teachers used - the flannel board, puppets - etc. Also, like was said -parables were NOT lies.
BCE
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Easy answer: St. John Bosco, the Catholic saint, was also a magician. Additionally, Pope John Paul had a well-corroborated theatrical arts background.
NightSG
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My first thought would be "ask any Christian who works in sales or marketing."

Particularly, I ask this one of Mormons in sales, because I'm not aware of any other major belief system that lays it out quite as clearly and unambiguously in such a fundamental teaching resource as Gospel Principles Chapter 31: "When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest." It goes on to clarify that acts such as intentionally providing an inferior product or service are dishonest, as well as more common acts of omission like not speaking up when you know you've gotten too much change. I've heard "strategic silence" and half-truths justified elsewhere, but I have to say that is one of, if not the best "no loopholes" statement of what dishonesty is that I've found anywhere.

If anyone can point out a similar statement in the central resources of any other faith, (I'm aware of the actual Biblical references, of course.) I'd be happy to add it to my "counteroffensive weapons to be used against those who try to hard-sell me" library. Smile
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