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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Coin magic-no magic only tricks? (10 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Juliano
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Don't get me wrong. The first sleight I learned was the coin vanish. But after I practiced with card magic for years and impromptu magic with other objects, Iam searching for a coin routine (something like coins through table or coins and glass) to add to my repertoire but every routine I am reviewing it seems to me not magical. Lots of moves, false counts, unnatural movements, and the sense that the coin is too small to conceal in the performers hands. So No magical sense at all for me. Maybe it is a magician way of view...
It is veru easy to fool me with other things, but with coins even if I don't know the secret I can feel the sleight always. This performance is an exception. Fred Kaps : https://youtu.be/N6ObgXTi0K8
so clean and economy of motions...
also Al Schneider has very clean moves with his routines, and some other exceptions but generally I can't find real magic but only tricks.
Maybe in live performances with stronger misdirection someone can really fool me, but here in Greece there are no really good performers.
Am I the only one here? Maybe Am I missing something?
Andy Young
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Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, Juliano wrote:
Don't get me wrong. The first sleight I learned was the coin vanish. But after I practiced with card magic for years and impromptu magic with other objects, Iam searching for a coin routine (something like coins through table or coins and glass) to add to my repertoire but every routine I am reviewing it seems to me not magical. Lots of moves, false counts, unnatural movements, and the sense that the coin is too small to conceal in the performers hands. So No magical sense at all for me. Maybe it is a magician way of view...
It is veru easy to fool me with other things, but with coins even if I don't know the secret I can feel the sleight always. This performance is an exception. Fred Kaps : https://youtu.be/N6ObgXTi0K8
so clean and economy of motions...
also Al Schneider has very clean moves with his routines, and some other exceptions but generally I can't find real magic but only tricks.
Maybe in live performances with stronger misdirection someone can really fool me, but here in Greece there are no really good performers.
Am I the only one here? Maybe Am I missing something?


You are missing a big something. What is that something you may ask?

It is what the spectators like to see. I did a real easy coin box move for kids and they just went nuts. People like magic with money. I went through the same issue you had. I looked at coin magic effects and said "Ugh I just don't like it." But that was from a magicians point of view. I tried different routines out anyways and was very happy with the results. I would suggest to find an effect and try it out and see the results you get. Results can be a strong way to make you want to revisit some of these effects that you don't really like.

You can also be very selective in the effect you want to do and watch countless things to find out which one you may want. The New York Coin Magic Seminar has a number of dvds out that focus on a certain plot. That may be a good starting point for you.

Other then that I would say if you don't like the effects more on to a different type of magic.
Rick Holcombe
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A lot of people say that coin magic has fewer possibilities than cards i.e.: vanishes, appearances, transpositions, translocations, animation, penetration, etc...

But the truth is you can accomplish most anything with coins as you can with cards, it's just a lot more difficult. GOOD COIN MAGIC IS HARD. I guess that's why I like it. I like the challenge of trying to make my coin magic look better or more magical. Plus I just like the coins themselves.

I would say search as hard as you can for routines that appeal to you, like the Fred Kaps video, and learn those. Just pick 3, learn them inside and out, script them, tweak them.

You mentioned that coin magic seems like a lot of moves, false counts, and unnatural movements. I would say that coin magic does rely on more manipulation than cards; in general you are always concealing something. But there is good coin magic out there, keep looking and try the simple stuff too, it works. Things don't have to look unnatural. I change handlings all the time to suit myself.

The final test is the audience. Are they entertained? Some things may seem less magical for you, but the audience will let you know what's magical or not. And in the end it may just mean more practice is required.
Juliano
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Thanks guys for your suggestions and advices! I already started working with Al Schneider's Matrix, a very well constructed routine. I will search for other routines as well. "Coins and glass" is a Fred Kaps routine from Routined Manipulation finale book. I want to enrich my magic with some coin work. But still a lot of magic that I see performed it sucks.
Mb217
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Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, Juliano wrote:
Don't get me wrong. The first sleight I learned was the coin vanish. But after I practiced with card magic for years and impromptu magic with other objects, Iam searching for a coin routine (something like coins through table or coins and glass) to add to my repertoire but every routine I am reviewing it seems to me not magical. Lots of moves, false counts, unnatural movements, and the sense that the coin is too small to conceal in the performers hands. So No magical sense at all for me. Maybe it is a magician way of view...
It is veru easy to fool me with other things, but with coins even if I don't know the secret I can feel the sleight always. This performance is an exception. Fred Kaps : https://youtu.be/N6ObgXTi0K8
so clean and economy of motions...
also Al Schneider has very clean moves with his routines, and some other exceptions but generally I can't find real magic but only tricks.
Maybe in live performances with stronger misdirection someone can really fool me, but here in Greece there are no really good performers.
Am I the only one here? Maybe Am I missing something?


Welcome Juliano... Smile

Some good responses, but you also make some good points too.

As to some "very clean moves" and some that you mention here, along with "coins & glass" here's a nice take that's not so drawn out...



And as to your search, when it comes to coin magic, there is a good-better-best to it all, and you will find some of each among the big, small and all of us out there... Smile
*Check out my latest: Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Not much new under the sun I hear but under the moon, well who knows, that just might be a horse of a different color." -Mb Smile
funsway
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One of my early mentors offered that performance magic is a form of communication. While "must be magic" occurs in the mind of the spectator,
the possibility of that option must come form the performer. Their "sense of magic" cannot ever be greater than yours.

If you do not have a sense of "awe and wonder" about what you are doing, how can you expect the observer to appreciate it?

The choice of props and even choice of effect is secondary to the desire to create an illusion of something impossible NOW!

It is easy to "do tricks" -- neither cards or coins are magical in and of themselves. So, what is missing in the equation for you?

Not sure how to help on-line. If you were a house guest it would be easy. I could make magic happen for you.

Best I can suggest is that if you look for tricks, that is what you will find -- and comparing coin and card effects is looking in the wrong place.

It seems trivial any more to speak of performance magic as an art form - for it probably is not for most performers.
Look for the art - the exchange of emotion - the affect rather than the effect. Not in yourself perhaps - but you can be the messenger.
"there is real merit in the magician who tries to be creative – from such endeavors magic sustains its life energy." Harold Rice



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
danaruns
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What do you think of this, Juliano? Magical?



Edit: Well, that didn't seem to work. Try this link: https://youtu.be/mBzaLxaiBhA
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
tonsofquestions
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I see a lot of magic that sucks, period. It's not restricted to coin magic, card magic, mentalism or any other genre. Many performers don't put in the time or energy to make things look good, or convincing, or the internal conviction/excitement that gets spectators going.

My suggestion is to watch clips of magicians doing tricks you're interested until you find one that *does* seem good to you, and then find more of their work to learn from/emulate them.
Mb217
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Thanks for posting Eric Mead's presentation...It was wonderful! Smile And tons, that's a great suggestion. Smile

I love Eric Mead's magic, his "way" of doing things, and a large part of it is always his interactions (suggestions) to the audience. He played it brilliantly here as Penn just had to admit. Nice presentation of a classic with some nice twists & turns to it, but that opening turned the tables toward the eventual win...Well played! Smile

As an aside here, when I was putting together an effect, "Grandpa's Coins" some years back now, I reached out to Eric about it as it related somewhat to something he did in one of his performances. We communicated back & forth about it, and he let me know what he liked and didn't like about it to develop something that he thought was pretty well done. I even pattered quite a bit more than I usually ever do in the effect, in thinking of Eric's way of presenting magic. That was a real high-point for me to get that kind of encouragement, guidance and approval from such a top-level worker. In this show with Penn & Teller, winning it all, he showed that level yet again. BRAVO! Smile

*Check out my latest: Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Not much new under the sun I hear but under the moon, well who knows, that just might be a horse of a different color." -Mb Smile
fonda57
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Knowing the right moves for a routine is what keeps me going. Since we are mentioning magic that we have seen, I would mention that I've seen a lot of routines that are packed with moves that do not have anything to do with the effect you display.

For me, too many "proving" moves can kill a routine.

Good one, MB
Juliano
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Iam not a fan of cylinder and coins...Of course this performance is technical excellent. It is a well performed choreography with perfect timing etc. But Iam searching for a purest kind of magic, without so many props, (I don't like magic wand) and maybe newer plots. This is why even the best performances of cups and balls doesn't appeal to me. I want minimum of objects, minimum of motions, more of surprise.. Sorry but this is me, maybe Iam the only one who didn't enjoyed this performance so much... because after all, it is the sense of wonder and surprise that I want from a magician, and when I see cups and balls, cylinder and coins or props like that, the element of surprise and unknown its not there. Just my personal opinion.
Andy Young
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Quote:
On Sep 23, 2017, Juliano wrote:
Iam not a fan of cylinder and coins...Of course this performance is technical excellent. It is a well performed choreography with perfect timing etc. But Iam searching for a purest kind of magic, without so many props, (I don't like magic wand) and maybe newer plots. This is why even the best performances of cups and balls doesn't appeal to me. I want minimum of objects, minimum of motions, more of surprise.. Sorry but this is me, maybe Iam the only one who didn't enjoyed this performance so much... because after all, it is the sense of wonder and surprise that I want from a magician, and when I see cups and balls, cylinder and coins or props like that, the element of surprise and unknown its not there. Just my personal opinion.

Are you going to be standing, sitting? Table or no table? Do you want to use gimmicks?
Rick Holcombe
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Have you looked at "Chink-a-Chink" or Shadow Coins routines?

I've been following this guy for a while now. Doesn't get more magical in my opinion. And no props for you either.

fonda57
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Technically excellent--You cant deny Eric Mead's performance looked like magic, Whether he uses "Old" props or not, and that's the goal, to look like it's magic
Juliano
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Andy Young I prefer sitting on table or stand up, no problem, I prefer no gimmicks.Rick I like this! Smile Fonda, excuse me can I have my own opinion? I think that I respected mr Mead's performance in my post. For me "real magic" cant be performed with a prop tha is used so much.. for example, if you perform for me a perfect unexplained routine with the standard "ball and vase" prop, maybe still I'll don't like it! some props are so much used that they don't have the element of surprise anymore...this is my opinion and I can keep it for me I hope Smile
MB 217 very nice performance!
Mb217
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Thanks so much Juliano, appreciate your kind comments. Smile There were a few things in there that are from Eric Mead himself, and he really liked the three coins becoming one again, he spoke very highly of it, I remember...He liked that, and the story of it all illustrated by the coins my grandpa gave me, all impromptu, no props, gaffs or gimmicks, and hopefully folks just saw a little magic with a few old coins. Smile

I undertand and respect your point of view here, and I really believe that everyone else does too, but they are just trying to offer varying perspectives as to what magic is and can be with a little of this & that. It's magic as they see it and as such, that's what they reflect in their thinking. I think it's all good as I believe in discussion and clearly there is no one way to do anything...Thank God! Smile

Personally, I can appreciate props as I can impromptu magic, like I can appreciate gaffed coins but just prefer good old SOH. Smile Often times, a good mixture of both can bring about even more magic and amazement. I often have to remember that in the equation of magician and spectator, it is the spectator that is most important, as you are trying to evoke an emotion from them, and not necessarily to from yourself. But you do have to be happy with what you are doing and that is the choice you are given to choose what you like and what you don't. And that why your points are as valid as anyone else's, and so are your critiques. I'm sure Eric Mead would survive whatever you didn't like about his performance, because somebody is always not going to like something...that's just life. Smile Your greater appreciation for what he did is all that is necessary and probably most appreciated.

What's magical to one person may not hit the mark for others. The goal is to always work at doing your best to hopefully hit the mark with most people, then you have succeeded, IMHO. Smile And in that, clearly Mead in his performance and career has hit that mark much more so than not because the magic has worked for him and as for his many audiences.

Great dishes at times can have too much salt added, or not enough pepper for some...But it remains a great dish for a reason. Smile So, to each his own. And with that, that little matrix or chink-a-chink posted right above here is pretty magical to my eye, even along the lines you mention that meet your magical criteria. I'd like to learn that one myself, how about you? Smile

Good talk!
*Check out my latest: Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Not much new under the sun I hear but under the moon, well who knows, that just might be a horse of a different color." -Mb Smile
Juliano
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Mb217 you spoke wisely! I respect entirely mr Mead's work! Its just a matter of taste.Yes I like the matrix thing and I want to learn it Smile
Mb217
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Thank you Juliano for the kind words here. Smile

Sometimes you're just looking for something special, something out of the regular order of things. That matrix is so very well done, that like you, I'd like to learn it too, and I don't do a lot of table work, hardly any anymore. But might have to make an exception as to this one. Very clever and absolutely magical. Smile
*Check out my latest: Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Not much new under the sun I hear but under the moon, well who knows, that just might be a horse of a different color." -Mb Smile
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