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thecromulent Veteran user Brooklyn, NY 388 Posts |
On this week's episode of "Penn and Teller Fool Us," Eric Mead talked a bit about a Johnny Thompson idea about magic for magicians. The idea is basically that a layman might be fooled by 90% of an effect, and will say that she was not fooled because of the 10% that she caught, while a magician will follow 90% of what happened, but say she is fooled because of the 10% that she didn't catch. This strikes me as one of the most brilliant things that I've ever heard. I've recently returned to amateur magic after a hiatus of about 20 years, and I've been giving a lot of thought to what it means to perform magic, and how magic for magicians differs from magic for humans. Does anybody have any context on this idea? Where it came from, and if there were any more details that followed? I'd love to read the essay that it was pulled from, if such a thing exists.
Evan |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
There was a guy named John Ramsay...
His only known student has written on the topic.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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thecromulent Veteran user Brooklyn, NY 388 Posts |
You're going to have to connect a few more dots for me...
Evan |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Keyword search: "ramsay andrew galloway"
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Darwin Ortiz V.I.P. 486 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 23, 2017, thecromulent wrote: This observation comes from my book Strong Magic. Sincerely, Darwin Ortiz |
Doc Willie Regular user 160 Posts |
I wonder if the difference is that a magician viewer is more aware of the many other aspects of a magic performance aside from "the secret", i.e. presentation, performance skill, personality of the performer, etc. A layperson may be affected by these other things, but only focusses on the gimmickry.
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thecromulent Veteran user Brooklyn, NY 388 Posts |
Darwin: Thanks for weighing in. I've heard wonderful things about the book--I'll have to check it out.
Doc: Here's how I interpreted the idea: Imagine a card routine that relies on a DL, a false shuffle, and a killer magician-fooling move that took you weeks to master. And let's say that your DL isn't that great, technically, and isn't covered well by the structure of the routine. The layman catches the DL, and thinks, "oh, I saw that part--that explains the method." The magician, on the other hand, catches the DL but thinks "but that still doesn't explain how the effect as a whole happened--there is something that I'm not accounting for, so I'm fooled." As laymen don't have the technical/theoretical knowledge to understand exactly _how_ things work, they just assume that any fishiness they perceive must explain the method, which may or may not be true. I'm reminded here of my wife, who sometimes says things like "well, I just assume you put that card there" (even in cases where I did not put the card there!). She sees me practicing sleights, and she knows that I have put a lot of time and thought into this stuff, so she imagines that I can just make anything happen, secretly, at any time. In some senses, that's a fair assumption for a layman to make. But the converse to "you can do anything secretly" is "the thing I saw can explain anything." The magician's reaction is much more analytical: "A move explains B, C principle explains D, but how did the egg get inside the lemon?!?! You fooled the heck out of me" |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote: John Cornelius had something like that in his lecture long ago. A cute card trick that likely still catches both layman and magicians.
The layman catches the DL, and thinks, ... Did you find the references to the guy who spent half a century fooling magicians? Also the basic humor of asking with reference to the Cylinder trick? Untested theory is difficult to distinguish from intentional misdirection.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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The Hermit Veteran user 301 Posts |
Let me sort it out. Magic performed for magicians is designed differently than magic for laypeople to either: sell something or to show off and later sell something. As to the quote, most laypeople don't follow a trick well enough to know how much they have seen. Only a magician would understand that. Both react accordingly.
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thecromulent Veteran user Brooklyn, NY 388 Posts |
I think it also has to do with expectations. The magician expects that they will catch most of what's happening, so if there is a big gap in understanding, they are (pleasantly) surprised and fooled. The layman expects that she will catch nothing, so any gap in the chain leads her to believe that she has caught the entire method.
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts |
I like that.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
pmarzionna New user Washington, DC 81 Posts |
Evan, if I might recommend, take a look at "Magic in Mind". It's a free book, which is a collection of essays by great names in Magic, including some excerpts from Strong Magic, by Mr. Ortiz. It's an amazing book, which will definitely make you think a lot about what it means to perform magic, among other interesting questions. The only "problem" is that you'll probably want to buy a lot of books after reading this...
Here is the link: https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic-......in-mind/ |
thecromulent Veteran user Brooklyn, NY 388 Posts |
Thanks so much, p! This looks wonderful. And you are following Joshua Jay's request:
"One small favor, if you please. In the sharing spirit this book is offered, please help me spread the word. If you know a young (or old) magician who would benefit from this collection, please send them to us so they can download it as well. Your tweets and comments will enable Magic in Mind to do what it is intended to do: improve the quality of magic in our industry." |
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