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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Is it ethical to teach this? (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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danaruns
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There's a trick I want to teach my mentee. It would be great for him. I learned it at a convention. A magician there gave a presentation and taught this trick to roughly 1,000 attendees. We paid for the convention, but not to learn this trick. It was taught in one of the optional sessions. It was taught as kind of a throw-away, to make a point about the psychology of misdirection. I don't know if the magician sells it anywhere. As far as I know, he doesn't do it in his show. The trick is a combination of two sleights from old books, though I have never seen anyone put them together before.

Is it ethical for me to teach it to my mentee?
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
WitchDocChris
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Could always ask the guy who taught it and see if he minds.
Christopher
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danaruns
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Quote:
On Oct 2, 2017, WitchDocChris wrote:
Could always ask the guy who taught it and see if he minds.


He lives in a different country, and I don't know how to reach him.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Dannydoyle
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If he taught it to you isn't it yours? I mean you "purchased " it in a way like a book and that gives you certain rights doesn't it? Mind you I'm asking not telling.

But here is something to consider. Does he even have the right to expect you not to teach it? Is it his creation or did he pass it along in some other way?

As it works out it seems to me on the surface it shouldn't be a big dilemma. SO much of magic is what is passed from one to another in this fashion.

Awareness is the key and that is your starting point. This can never be a bad thing.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Gerald Deutsch
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I think it's fine of your "mentee" wants to perform the effect.

(I believe magic is to be learned by those that want to perform - not by those with idle curiosity.)
Dannydoyle
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I do not understand that position. The vast majority of magic is not purchased by performing professionals.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Rik Gazelle
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Quote:
magic is to be learned by those that want to perform - not by those with idle curiosity

Really? Have you never studied something just for the sheer joy of it?
Gerald Deutsch
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Quote:
On Oct 3, 2017, Rik Gazelle wrote:
Quote:
magic is to be learned by those that want to perform - not by those with idle curiosity

Really? Have you never studied something just for the sheer joy of it?


So, if I understand you, there should be NO secrets in magic because to not reveal how an effect is done is to deprive someone of knowing something "just for the joy of it"?
WitchDocChris
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I'm not sure if that's slippery slope logic, or reducto ad absurdum. Either way, it's faulty logic.

They are simply pointing out that it's perfectly fine for someone to learn things just because they are curious about it. They never mentioned anything about it being freely available without some kind of payment or investment of time and energy - simply that the motivation behind learning doesn't need to be to perform it.
Christopher
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Rik Gazelle
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You clearly do not understand me Gerald. You infer something that I neither said nor implied.

Should "secrets" just be handed out just for the asking? No.
Should "secrets" be available to those who wish to study the art, but not perform it? Yes.
Rik Gazelle
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Chris, you are quite correct that I don't think the "secrets" should be freely available without some kind of payment or investment of time and energy. I've been interested in magic for over 50 years and spent a small fortune on books (some common, some less so). I have performed a small handful of routines for family and friends over the years but for the most part I just like studying the art.
Yuan Moons
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Magic today! The trials and tribulations Dai Vernon went through to learn the centre deal... Today he could have just downloaded it from Theory 11 for $10
WitchDocChris
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Yes. The world has changed.

I have read that Dai Vernon himself was criticized for publishing his material in not-super-expensive books.

I mean, dang it, what happened to the good ol' days when you had to get an apprenticeship! What is happening! Soon everyone will be a magician! THE SKY IS FALLING!
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Rik Gazelle
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If it is any consolation Chris I did purchase the entire set of "Dai Vernon Revelations" videos, in good old VHS format!
WitchDocChris
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Nice. I haven't even owned a VHS player in years.

My point is that we live in a world where information is vastly more freely available than even a couple decades ago. That is not going to stop, and it's not worth it to compare today's information structure to the past. Just be aware that certain information is more readily available, and that plenty of information is still kept extremely secret, make the best act you can, and move on with life.
Christopher
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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Oct 4, 2017, Yuan Moons wrote:
Magic today! The trials and tribulations Dai Vernon went through to learn the centre deal... Today he could have just downloaded it from Theory 11 for $10


So you believe the story?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Oct 4, 2017, WitchDocChris wrote:
Nice. I haven't even owned a VHS player in years.

My point is that we live in a world where information is vastly more freely available than even a couple decades ago. That is not going to stop, and it's not worth it to compare today's information structure to the past. Just be aware that certain information is more readily available, and that plenty of information is still kept extremely secret, make the best act you can, and move on with life.


I like people who want to close the door once they are in the room.

Fact is our "secrets" are not secret at all. The magic shop does not in any way care about anything except if you have the money to pay for the trick.

I do think her trying to make certain she is on the right side of this is admirable. It is something so few ever even consider.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WitchDocChris
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Quote:
On Oct 4, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I do think her trying to make certain she is on the right side of this is admirable. It is something so few ever even consider.


Quoted for emphasis but I agree with everything he said.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
mantel
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Quote:
On Oct 4, 2017, WitchDocChris wrote:
I have read that Dai Vernon himself was criticized for publishing his material in not-super-expensive books.


Where did you read this? Dai Vernon's $20 Dollar Manuscript when it was first published would cost approximately $330 in 2017 dollars.
Rik Gazelle
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Quote:
certain information is more readily available, and that plenty of information is still kept extremely secret

I find that comforting. IT means there is always something new to be learned and we are all eternal students. Even if we do not perform Smile

And I'm not sure where my VHS player is now, probably in the attic somewhere along with the tapes.
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