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Dannydoyle
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Do you believe that one only needs to defend and be prepared to defend against threats that are immediately happening?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

None of which are possible under our system of government.

And cutting out budget means your paradise has to defend itself. Why does this escape you time and time again?


Where does it say that in our system of government we must spend five times the needed amount of money to defend ourselves? Just the current increase in the military budget this year would have been enough to pay for free higher education for everyone.

https://theintercept.com/2017/09/18/the-......ge-free/


BTW, Trump asked for 54 billion, the Senate gave him 80 billion. This is kleptocracy.


I never said it said any such thing did I?
Now how about answering how those we defend will now do so themselves?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

None of which are possible under our system of government.

And cutting out budget means your paradise has to defend itself. Why does this escape you time and time again?


Where does it say that in our system of government we must spend five times the needed amount of money to defend ourselves? Just the current increase in the military budget this year would have been enough to pay for free higher education for everyone.

https://theintercept.com/2017/09/18/the-......ge-free/

BTW, Trump asked for 54 billion, the Senate gave him 80 billion. This is kleptocracy.


Seriously, is anyone foolish enough to think that this government - meaning it's owners - gives a dammn about the people.

This is robbery, done by slaves for the enrichment of animals, plain and simple.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

None of which are possible under our system of government.

And cutting out budget means your paradise has to defend itself. Why does this escape you time and time again?


Where does it say that in our system of government we must spend five times the needed amount of money to defend ourselves? Just the current increase in the military budget this year would have been enough to pay for free higher education for everyone.

https://theintercept.com/2017/09/18/the-......ge-free/


BTW, Trump asked for 54 billion, the Senate gave him 80 billion. This is kleptocracy.


I never said it said any such thing did I?
Now how about answering how those we defend will now do so themselves?


It's very simple. We tell the rest of the world to take care of themselves because we're broke; and that from now on we'll be taking care of ourselves.

All of our so-called help has only made all situations worse.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Dannydoyle
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Tell that to Kuwait, and Europe for that matter.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
NYCTwister
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I think we can stop beating our chests about WWII.

As far as Kuwait I'd rather talk to Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, or any of the other 177 countries we're involved in at this moment.

But let's ignore all of that. Wouldn't want to disturb the flow of the rhetoric, now would we?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Defence from whom and invasion from where?

Hilarious.


Why?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_i......k_(1940)

Six hours.

Of course, Hitler ain't around anymore, so no danger exists to Denmark.
stoneunhinged
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OK, another double post.

Obviously there is no threat to Denmark. But it is because of NATO. It's silly to think that Denmark might be over-run by a hostile country, because the USA is footing the bill of the defense of Europe.

Please remember that I--along with Landmark--tend toward pacifism. But our world can get pretty ugly, and someone has to pay the money it costs to prevent future would-be Hitlers from taking invading Denmark.

Who pays that bill? Not Denmark.
NYCTwister
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First of all, the would-be Hitlers are our allies.

Second of all, why do we pay the bill? Maybe to justify the obscene amount of money we spend on weapons instead of our welfare?

Fact is that we never accomplish what we say we're trying to accomplish, probably because the reasons are lies. And we always make things worse.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
First of all, the would-be Hitlers are our allies.

Second of all, why do we pay the bill? Maybe to justify the obscene amount of money we spend on weapons instead of our welfare?

Fact is that we never accomplish what we say we're trying to accomplish, probably because the reasons are lies. And we always make things worse.


I'm not sure that I would disagree with anything you have just written.

Maybe I'll think otherwise tomorrow,

It has been a difficult day.
Jonathan Townsend
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On Nov 15, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
... Wouldn't want to disturb the flow of the rhetoric, now would we?


If it's not persuasive - it's not effective rhetoric. Perhaps appeal to vanity by way of paternalism and patriotism but... meh.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
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The road to hell is paved with good inventions. Guns are a technology, which is only one of many that are part of the machines which is the USA. If a part or parts of the machine are tampered with then things will work out differently. If for example, mobile phones are banned, then it will change everything in the technological society. It is the machines that are in control, not we. The right to bear phones isn't in the American constitution - is it?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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Only the right to phone bears.
"I use my five illusions to create the sense I'm useful to six."



You can read my daily blog at Musings, Memories, and Magic
Jonathan Townsend
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On Nov 15, 2017, tommy wrote:
... The right to bear phones isn't in the American constitution - is it?


Depends upon where that phone is pointed and whether you can get the video somewhere safe or visible quickly enough...

Rumor has it cell phone and wifi network traffic may be bottle-necked and filtered in some places. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
First of all, the would-be Hitlers are our allies.

Second of all, why do we pay the bill? Maybe to justify the obscene amount of money we spend on weapons instead of our welfare?

Fact is that we never accomplish what we say we're trying to accomplish, probably because the reasons are lies. And we always make things worse.


So you want to be an isolationist? Let them take care of themselves just so WE are ok they can suffer? We let them be taken over by the next lunatic who comes along?

In sorry but this seems less than compassionate to me. Certainly this is not your position and I simply misinterpreted what you are saying. Please clarify.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
NYCTwister
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Danny, the reasons for my position on foreign policy are basically the same as my objection to social welfare...in the long run.

I'm fundamentally against "welfare" programs, not because I'm heartless and don't want to help anyone, but because they weaken people. It makes need the standard and it never ends; as we've seen, and see.

On a national and global scale such thinking can only lead to more and bigger governments; which I am DEFINITELY against.

It's the same with things like government pensions; which basically say that you'll be paid long after the value of your efforts is gone. Such things create virtually lifelong jobs, when you factor in unions, which I'm also against on a fundamental level, though I realize their allure given the current, and past, world state.

Same with Social Security, which I would have no problem with if it was voluntary, but it's not. What it is, basically, is the government telling you that you will not be able to care for yourself after you've gotten too old to work.

Same with affirmative action.

People think I'm some Ayn Rand fanboy, but I'm not. I searched long and hard for a philosophy that fit my thinking - a vindication of sorts. While I don't believe in everything she said, the main tenets ring true; especially the absolute right of the individual.
This doesn't mean that we're supposed to worship "the individual" mindlessly. What it means is that the individual has the right to realize their potential, and to not have that right curtailed by subjective factors.
Her thinking, and mine, was that while all are created equally, they don't stay that way; and any system of living together MUST acknowledge that and allow for unequal compensation. In other words, a janitor and a brain surgeon are not of the same valueto society, and not only should they not be compensated equally - they shouldn't expect to be.

Socialism/communism at their core say that we're all the same, and all deserve the same - so forget that, as far as I'm concerned.

On a global scale, to me, this means that each country must bring value to the eventual global society, which I welcome - but only if we're objective about it.

I could go on and on, but to bring it back to your question about isolationism, no, I don't think we should isolate ourselves. What we, and every other country, needs to do is enter the global arena by contributing value based on it's ability - not because we can beat you up; or, conversely, because of how pathetic it is.

People might say that that's cruel to the countries that have less, and on the surface I can see why they would say that. "Left alone the people of these countries will suffer! What about the children?!"
Well they suffer anyway, and all of these programs and aid packages haven't really made an objective difference, Admittedly some are helped in the short run, but in the long run giving someone what they need almost always leads to greater weakness, because just dealing with their need du jour, does nothing to deal with the reason that the need existed in the first place.
I'm speaking about systemic problems of course, and not about disasters.

Despite all the "help" children are still starving in third world countries, women and gays are still evil in Saudi Arabia etc.
That hasn't changed. It's been the same since I was a child.

What has changed is the size and power of governments. The s#it our government gets away with now, would have been cause for instant revolt when I was a kid.
Hyperbole? Bombast? Maybe, but not by much.

Btw, I'm aware that the playing field isn't level, and hasn't been for a long while. But I think more about the long run, both towards the future, and looking back.
Every culture and type of people has, at one time or another, been oppressed, conquered, and/or enslaved. So let's just focus on equalizing opportunity now, and stop expecting everyone to pay for the sins of their great grandfathers.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
landmark
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Eisenhower, who knew a thing or two about the military, and how the defense industry worked, chose to end his Presidency with a farewell speech which warned of the post-Korean War military-industrial complex:


"Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist...

Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative. Together we must learn how to compose differences, not with arms, but with intellect and decent purpose. Because this need is so sharp and apparent I confess that I lay down my official responsibilities in this field with a definite sense of disappointment. As one who has witnessed the horror and the lingering sadness of war -- as one who knows that another war could utterly destroy this civilization which has been so slowly and painfully built over thousands of years -- I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace is in sight."

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/eisenhower001.asp
"I use my five illusions to create the sense I'm useful to six."



You can read my daily blog at Musings, Memories, and Magic
NYCTwister
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I forgot the "next lunatic".

First of all, most of the fear about these hypothetical bogey men is manufactured.

Second of all, many of those that do exist came into existence because of the supposed good intentions of the protectors.

Third of all, those that are an actual threat, meaning those bent on "ruling the world", are only strengthened by the force exerted on them.

And finally, if and when some country is taken over, it's not necessarily our responsibility to fix their problem.

But it sure is good for rhetoric, an unearned feeling of moral superiority, and weapon sales to act like it is.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
landmark
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The most profound insight of Eisenhower in the above speech is his recognition that the influence of the military-industrial complex is "even spiritual." We have become Sparta, and it has warped our view of the world and one another.
"I use my five illusions to create the sense I'm useful to six."



You can read my daily blog at Musings, Memories, and Magic
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, landmark wrote:
Eisenhower, who knew a thing or two about the military, and how the defense industry worked, chose to end his Presidency with a farewell speech which warned of the post-Korean War military-industrial complex:


"Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist...

Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative. Together we must learn how to compose differences, not with arms, but with intellect and decent purpose. Because this need is so sharp and apparent I confess that I lay down my official responsibilities in this field with a definite sense of disappointment. As one who has witnessed the horror and the lingering sadness of war -- as one who knows that another war could utterly destroy this civilization which has been so slowly and painfully built over thousands of years -- I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace is in sight."

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/eisenhower001.asp


And, less than sixty years later, the MIC rules the world.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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