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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Deckless! » » Hamman count -- is it harder to learn if you don't know the Elmsley count (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bob G
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Hi folks,


I'm trying to focus my learning by choosing tricks that excite me and learning the sleights needed to perform those tricks. I have in mind my own variation of the wild 9 trick, which requires a Hamman count.



But -- I don't know any false counts. So my question is, will it make my learning of the Hamman count easier if I first learn the Elmsley count? Or will learning Hamman be just as easy (or hard) to learn regardless of whether I already know Elmsley?



I realize, of course, that Elmsley is used in a *lot* more tricks than Hamman is. But right now the sleight I'm excited about learning is Hamman.


Thanks for your help!


Bob
fonda57
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Why not learn them both? They are both fun and usefull.

So, you have your own variation of a trick that requires the Hamman count but you don't know how to do the count?
Huzzah
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If you're serious about card magic, learn them both. You'll use both of them a lot, no question about it. In answer to you're question though, no, learning the Elmsley doesn't really help with the Hamman. The Elmsley count is typically done with the cards in a more mechanics grip and/or pinching the cards at the sides while the Hamman count's grip much more closely resembles a biddle grip.
Bob G
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Thanks to you both. Yes, I plan to learn both of them in time, absolutely. But not all at once!


I've read a lot more than I've practiced, so I know *about* much more than I *know*, if you see what I mean. . Giobbi has a trick, I think it's called the "Really Wild Nine Trick" - probably a version of the famous "Wild Card Trick," but I'd have to look both up again to make sure. I'd like to turn the situation into a story about two devils playing some kind of game with the backs of red and blue cards. There's a big bad devil and a little good devil, and the former cheats and is winning for a while. But then, to his surprise, the backs of his cards start changing color, and he ends up losing.


My wife and I have a 28-year old daughter, and the two of them are my audience at the moment. We've all retained our child-like love of simple stories like the one I just described.


Since I have a trick I need the Hamman count for, I'm happy to hear that I can start with the Hamman count.


By the way, can you folks suggest other tricks that use the Hamman count? There are so many uses of the Elmsley count that I hardly know where to start. (Not twisitng the aces -- he said sacrilegiously -- because I never found it all that interesting on the videos I've seen.) But the Wild Card is the only use I know of for the Hamman count.
fonda57
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You have a good audience there Smile
Chris03
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When I was working on this sleights (50 years ago) I practice both of them : one Elmsley, one Hamman and so on, trying to keep the same rhythm. This has worked for me, why not trying that ?
Bob G
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Interesting idea, Chris, thanks for the suggestion. I wish *I* had started 50 years ago -- I'm coming to magic latish in my life. It's wonderful fun.
Chris03
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But you have a long life ahead of you, enjoy this years in the world of magic (not only).
Chris03
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Bob G, houps, I make a mistake I have confused the Hamman count with the Jordan count and one Elmsley, one Jordan and so on is a good way for practice both, but if you want to master the Hamman you must work on it and only on it and you will discover several ways to make it.
Sorry for that error.
Bob G
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Thanks for the clarification, Chris, and the good wishes!
Jonathan Townsend
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Interesting to see someone starting with a vision for the routine rather than a packet trick with instructions. How's it going?
Hamman's count is a start for the trick. There's still the work with turnovers and ...

Happy New Year,

JonT
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Bob G
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Hi Jon,


Happy New Year to you too. Thanks for checking in, and for your take on packet tricks -- I hadn't thought of it that way. I haven't done anything with this idea so far, though the trick is still on my list, and the Hamman count is still a sleight I want to learn. I've been practicing small packet DL's for Color Monte (and a regular full-deck DL, which is finally starting to go well), and I've created my own story for Nick Trost's Sub-Trunk Mystery (which also appears in Paul Cummin's lecture notes -- not sure if this was an independent invention).


I'll look at Giobbi's routine again; it's been a while and I don't remember turnovers, etc. Maybe it's a good thing that I'm deferring my idea for a while and concentrating on simpler effects.


Advice is always welcome.


Best,


Bob
Bob G
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Jon,


I just looked again at Giobbi's version in CC, and there's a lot involved. I also looked at an 8-page thread, to which you contributed, in which people were listing, at first, their favorite Wild Card Effects, and then, every WC they could think of. It ws overwhelming! So here's a question for you, given that you seem to have a broad knowledge of this type of effect. Can you recommend a WC effect that meets the following requirements?"


1. It would be easily adaptable to the "devils" plot I suggested;


2. It would be within the reach of a relative beginner;


3. It would be ungifted (probably contradicting #2).


I mayl have to put this one off till I have more experience, but of course I'd love to perform it earlier rather than later if practical. Thanks for whatever you have time to offer.


&&&


Also, a note to fonda57: I thought I had acknowledged your nice commment, "You have a good audience there," but maybe I forgot to hit the "Submit Reply" button. Bob
Waterloophai
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There are several ways to execute the Hamman count.
The two main ones are in "one flowing motion" (one card after each other) and another method is with a time interval / delay at the "critical" moment.

with time interval: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvURE6ueeEk at 01min19sec

flowing motion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3QynL4oLhg at 00min22sec

One is not better than the other. It depends on the trick and your style.
Bob G
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Jon, Oops! In point #3 the spell checker changed "ungaffed" to "ungifted"!


Thanks, Waterloophai, I'll look at these videos.


Bob
Bob G
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I haven't checked the nuances of the Hamman count at the times you kindly gave me,
Waterloophai, but I want to thank you for introducing me to Tommy Wonder. I'd heard lots of good things about him but hadn't seen him. He's a master commedian, isn't he? I enjoyed his presentation thoroughly.
Jonathan Townsend
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Has Trixer, among others, explored a wildcard type routine (Wild, Man, Wild) using duplicates and the backs changing color. Bob Farmer's also been exploring the theme. If you'd like to see the Hamman count done surprisingly well - find the Fred Kaps video on YouTube of him doing the gypsy cards trick. Smile

You might enjoy learning the Biddle card trick as you practice Smile Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Bob G
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Hi again, Jon. I'm afraid you may be providing an example of a friends' dictum that "Virtue is its own punishment." Your comments have led me to further questions. Answer them or not as you please.


1. I looked pretty hard on the web and was unable to find a source for Hans Trixer's routine (other than a couple of youtube performances). And I couldn't find anything about Farmer's ideas, except that his effect may be called Headhunter. Do you happen to know any sources?



3. Thanks for mentioning the Kaps video. Everyone raves about him, and I'll be glad to have a chance to see him in action.


3. Funnily enough, the Biddle trick is high on my list of tricks that I'd *like* to learn. Another trick with a false count -- yay! I emphasize "like" to learn because of the following dilemma. It's such a great trick, and yet people routinely ruin it, or so I've concluded from youtube performances. It seems to me that to do justice to the trick one has to motivate all the steps (like cutting the deck in half and choosing five cards). I love Giobbi's version in CC3 ("The Invisible Card"), but there's an awful lot to learn in order to perform it: Biddle Steal, of course; injog shuffle, top card glimpse, riffle force... Mind you, those are all basic techniques that I'll want to learn eventually anyway. But I'm curious whether you know of a good plot that doesn't use quite so much.


I've read some threads that suggest Jon Armstrong's handling, and he does motivate everything, but what he does just isn't to my taste.


Thanks again for all your thoughts.


Bob
Jonathan Townsend
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The item, Wild, Man, Wild was a Ken Brooke item - a packet of eight blue backed jokers and one red backed joker - wildcard using the backs rather than faces.

Bob Farmer is a Café member and can be reached at bammomagic@cogeco.ca for email. So far folks have kept the basic presentation idea of Headhunter quiet... good Smile Smile

There's a video online on YouTube of Fred Kaps doing some card magic - including his version of the Gypsy Curse which uses the count. Playing up the changes as a process or single event is up to you. Smile

The Biddle trick has a history - see here: http://www.geniimagazine.com/magicpedia/Biddle_Trick

Enjoy your explorations!

JonT
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Bob G
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I will -- thanks, Jon!


Bob
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