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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Conspiracy Theories, False Flags etc. » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (37 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Jonathan Townsend
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Smile I wish. It's as if a blindspot forms when looking at the text when it comes to seeing it as content/sentiment vs well formed. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Terrible Wizard
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I've become far more sceptical of all institutions of power in the last few years. This includes the press, both mainstream and alternative. This forum is as close to social media as I dare get.
Jonathan Townsend
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No Theory required:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/......e-s-data

Timely action required:
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/201711......sh.shtml
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/techn......ity.html
https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/21/the-fc......s-filed/

or from Forbes if you read between the lines:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrydownes......2491438e


Social media is a great place for chatbots:
http://personas.smaply.com/?utm_source=g......onas0717
https://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/blogs......nion.htm

@TW, How does it help to be skeptical (why that in particular?) about entertainment rather than cynical (who's getting paid?) ?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Terrible Wizard
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I was using the word 'sceptical' in a pretty imprecise way - basically to mean, 'I neither trust their content nor motive.'
landmark
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"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet"--Abraham Lincoln

You can read my daily blog at Musings, Memories, and Magic
Jonathan Townsend
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How much for the "no swearwords or clickbait" package or the "maybe he wasn't a prophet" movie network?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
E.S. Andrews
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Quote:
On Oct 30, 2017, Slim King wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 30, 2017, magicfish wrote:
Freedom of speech is dead.
If you are honest and speak your mind, your opinion must comply with the media driven collective. If not, you will be ostracized, perhaps rendered jobless.
Resistance is futile.
You will agree with the politically correct moronic masses with a clickable mouse or you will face the consequences.
A dictatorship without a dictator.

So true .. besides .. Who is "Really" saying these things ... Is it real? Is it a ploy to get you to hate people who have different opinions? Is it a way to weaponize a word like Conspiracy instead of looking at it's true meaning?I like real skepticism. I also know of people who claim to be skeptics that are quite the opposite. Social media is smoke and mirrors just like magic..... Smile


Ah, the first amendment crowd again bemoans the death of "free speech," apparently not knowing what the first amendment says or does even though its pertinent prohibition is but nine words: "CONGRESS shall make no LAW . . . abridging the freedom of speech." The first amendment only limits federal legislation and, with the adoption of the fourteenth amendment, state legislation impacting speech. Everyone else is constitutionally unimpeded to curtail what you might want to say, whether on the job, in a place of business, on internet bulletin boards and social media platforms, or anywhere you might care to bloviate.

It seems that you are confusing freedom of speech with freedom from debate, criticism, scorn, condemnation, or ridicule. Not only are private actors, as distinguished from governmental legislative bodies, free to call you on your horse****, they are free to prohibit you from spouting it in their venues and forums. Freedom OF speech is also freedom FROM speech, so long as it isn’t the government legislating it. If you want to spew delusional conspiracy theories, bigoted views, or knuckle-dragging opinions and can find forums that allow you to do it, have at it. But you should also celebrate an evolved and enlightened backlash to your public pronouncements, which you so blithely dismiss as “political correctness,” because that is free speech as well.
Terrible Wizard
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I'm fairly strong on what I think free speech should mean in society, I sometimes refer to myself as a 'free speech fundamentalist'. It seems obvious to me that presenting an unpopular opinion is likely to result in strong rebuttals, protests, insults, social/personal ostracisation, and the such like - which is exactly as it should be and entirely proper within a culture that highly values free speech. Institutional, governmental, economic or other non-personal counter-attacks (deplatforming, criminalising, firing, and the such like), and obviously any form of physical violence, are out of bounds, IMHO.
E.S. Andrews
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We would need a new constitutional amendment, or an amendment to the first amendment, to enshrine most of your view of what freedom of speech ought to entail, TW. The term "freedom of speech" is undefined in the constitutional amendment that coined it. Although that term has taken on near mythical status, the first amendment protects whatever it is only from governmental abridgment, and even that protection is not absolute. The primary aim of the first amendment's authors was to constrain the government from suppressing criticism by the governed. It was revolutionary and majestic, but its scope and effect are limited. Criminalization of speech, which you mention, is a legislative function and therefore is constrained by the first amendment. Deplatforming from privately run internet sites and commercial social media (or from your home or club, for example) is not, nor are pocketbook expressions of disagreement or disapproval (economic boycotts), which themselves are considered speech under the first amendment, or an employer's ability to limit public expression by employees that reflect negatively on the employer or violate an employer's code of conduct that are conditions for employment. Physical violence against a speaker, which you also mentioned, has a remedy: a lawsuit for money damages or criminal charges for battery or worse. My point is that the popular view of what the first amendment was designed to do and does is not accurate. That doesn't mean it isn't magnificent. It only means that the readiest to shout "free speech" and "first amendment" ought to know what they are talking about before talking.
landmark
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As Mr. Andrews says, the First Amendment is quite limited in scope, but many who advocate for free speech do not think the discussion of free speech should be limited solely to US Constitutional issues. It is a subject far more wide-ranging than that, and gets to the heart of the nature of democracy and human rights.
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet"--Abraham Lincoln

You can read my daily blog at Musings, Memories, and Magic
stoneunhinged
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For non-lawyers (like me) this might help:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/incorporation_doctrine

Basically, many of the rights which were originally understood to be a restriction of the power of the federal government have been extended--via the 14th amendment--to the states as well.

What this has to do with the discussion I'm not sure. I get confused sometimes, especially after the fourth whiskey.
Jonathan Townsend
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IMHO - not as long as we have this sort of reasoning presented in public making policy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

So, is it about the tax base or just about the (lowering) cost of semi-skilled labor?

Dollars make sense.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Nov 25, 2017, landmark wrote:
. . . many who advocate for free speech do not think the discussion of free speech should be limited solely to US Constitutional issues.

They're wrong.

The US Constitution is the only legal document that matters. Period.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Nov 25, 2017, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 25, 2017, landmark wrote:
. . . many who advocate for free speech do not think the discussion of free speech should be limited solely to US Constitutional issues.

They're wrong.

The US Constitution is the only legal document that matters. Period.


To whom?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Nov 25, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 25, 2017, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 25, 2017, landmark wrote:
. . . many who advocate for free speech do not think the discussion of free speech should be limited solely to US Constitutional issues.

They're wrong.

The US Constitution is the only legal document that matters. Period.

To whom?

Humans.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Nov 25, 2017, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 25, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 25, 2017, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 25, 2017, landmark wrote:
. . . many who advocate for free speech do not think the discussion of free speech should be limited solely to US Constitutional issues.

They're wrong.

The US Constitution is the only legal document that matters. Period.

To whom?

Humans.


We still have bathroom inequality... but for citizens of the USA - the interpretation of our constitution is important
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
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It is hard to imagine but these conversations get tougher and tougher to follow each day.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Terrible Wizard
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ES Andrews:
I'm British, not beholden to the first amendment (though I wish we had an equivalent in the UK - at least a step in the right direction). If the US constitution isn't robust enough to sufficiently protect one of the most fundamental of human rights necessary for civilisation, then so be it. Get a better one Smile. Free speech is a core liberal value.
E.S. Andrews
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Cheers, TW. It isn't that the first amendment lacks robustness to protect the ability of the citizenry to speak its mind, free from government tyranny. Amendment One to our Constitution does that beautifully. Reams of jurisprudence applying the First Amendment to real-life situations attest to the amendment's genius. That said, Amendment One to our Consitution is a source both of pride and confusion in this country. Many Americans mistakenly think that the freedom to say what they will without government censorship or backlash equates with freedom from public response or consequences. Generally speaking, if the unpleasant consequences come from someone other than their federal or state government, they best look someplace other than the Constitution for solace or a remedy. Which is how it should be. Public response to free speech is itself free speech, whether the response is approving or condemning, celebratory or withering, exultant or mocking. Consequences for speaking one's mind in certain places or contexts are matters for other laws, ordinances, regulations, and rules, which need to be taken into account by adult members of a society. Want to tell off your boss in front of everyone at the company? Have at it. Just don't cry "freedom of speech" while packing up your desk. Feel like jumping on a privately run internet bulletin board and spewing outlandish conspiracy theories or right-wing talking points? Great. But don't bemoan the death of "free speech" when other speakers call you on your nonsense and don't cry "first amendment" when you are given a timeout by a site moderator for violating the forum's rules. And finally, if others choose to condemn you, ostracize you, or boycott your goods or services for speaking publically in moronic or bigoted ways, that is their right, not only under the first amendment's freedom of speech clause but also under another fundamental right enshrined in that amendment: the freedom to associate or not associate oneself with you or your ideas. Which is why I posted in this thread to begin with: When their public utterances are derided, flag-wavers are often the least conversant with the Consitution they are so ready to invoke.
Dannydoyle
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Freedom of speech is a shield for all. Pretty good synopsis above.

A persons right to be free implies my right to be free from you.

To the above I might at that speech one disagrees with is not automatically hate speech.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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