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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Required Sleights (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

RiderBacks
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I'm a card guy, not a coin guy. But I'd like to make the move to learning more coin magic. While I think I could suss this information out myself with a bit of work, I'm hoping that asking the coin workers will return faster results.

So the question is this. What coin sleights do you consider most important for performing a gimmick-free version of Coins Across? Classic (Coin) Palm, of course. But what else do you consider to be the most important coin sleights for performing some (or your favorite) version of this routine?
funsway
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Several palming techniques, a false transfer and a Utility Pass/Switch are all that is required for dozens of terrific "small object" magic effects.

All the rest are Moves to provide concealment, directed focus and misdirection to support several themes:

here and not there
here now
not here
not the same as before
more or less than

Classic Palm not necessary for any of the above.

many such sleights can be found in Bobo's (book or DVD) - or Roth Series of DVD's

....

for me, the ability to secretly transfer a coin from one hand to the other during natural movements is desirable. With that ability - add several dozen more effects.
Also desirable are various methods for Ditching, Stealing and Idling a coin(s).
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Michael Rubinstein
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Rattle purse 2.0 now available! PM me for details!
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New York Coin Magic Seminar dvd series available for download at: https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/magic-dvds/new-york-coin-magic-seminar-downloads/
NEW!! At The Table 2 hour lecture download OR DVD containing 11 routines, including THREE never taught before! Download and dvd avaliable at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22380 or http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22833
DaveGripenwaldt
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Goshman pinch and han ping chen come to mind.
jakeg
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Just as in cards, the only slights that are ‘required’ are those necessary to perform the routines that you are working on.
Mb217
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Quote:
On Nov 13, 2017, RiderBacks wrote:
I'm a card guy, not a coin guy. But I'd like to make the move to learning more coin magic. While I think I could suss this information out myself with a bit of work, I'm hoping that asking the coin workers will return faster results.

So the question is this. What coin sleights do you consider most important for performing a gimmick-free version of Coins Across? Classic (Coin) Palm, of course. But what else do you consider to be the most important coin sleights for performing some (or your favorite) version of this routine?


Lots of good advice here. Smile

It only takes a few good nails into some good wood to start... Smile With that,I would simply add, practice the CP, FP and a sh pss, while taking a good look through Bobo's Coin Magic to familiarize yourself with all the elements, and it'll take you a good long way toward the good-better-best of it all. Smile

You might also check out Michael Ammar's "Complete Intro to Coin Magic" DVD, it's good beginner/ building-block stuff, plus a good basic EZ Coins Across included. Smile

Welcome here and good journey to you. Smile
*Check out my latest: Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Not much new under the sun I hear but under the moon, well who knows, that just might be a horse of a different color." -Mb Smile
RiderBacks
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I currently plan to source Geoffrey Latta's Ultimate Han Ping Chien out of Kaufman's Coin Magic. (Sound good?) And thanks for that mention, Dave. That was helpful. The Goshman Pinch I think I will skip, due to having broken the pinky in the past... The back palm is a problem for that reason too. =(

I'm aware that there are tons of different false transfers, palms, etc... I just want to make sure I begin work on adding the "best" ones to the repertoire. So, e.g., in card magic, if someone asks for a few sleights they absolutely must have, there are some clear cut answers. One must-have is the double lift, for example. And this is a non-trivial move. But then, of course, there are dozens of different methods of double lifting, and some are superior to others. What I was hoping for was some insight into the superior methods of performing some of the most useful coin sleights. It looks like Michael Rubinstein has gone some distance towards answering that question. I'll probably pick that set of DVD's up for Christmas. Thanks Michael!

To give another idea of what I'm looking for... So a false transfer. Sure. Obviously. But which one? The Retention Vanish? And if so, which version of it? Experienced coin folk will no doubt have ideas on whether or not that is the best false transfer to add to one's repertoire, and, if so, which version of it is the best version. I realize that opinions are like ***s (everybody has one) and that not every move suits everybody. (I've just rejected two moves above.) But sharing of opinions helps people (who also do their own research) bootstrap faster. =) I estimate that I'm at least two years out from ever performing any coin magic. While I will never tire of the pasteboards, I'm currently feeling the need to do some other things with my hands from time to time...
simplymagicweb
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You won't go wrong with David Roth's Expert Coin Magic Book - it's a classic! That will have everything you want in it - false transfers, rentention vanishes and of course lot's of fantastic routines including coins across. This book led me to venture into coin magic many years ago and I have never looked back.
Magically,

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tonsofquestions
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I understand what you're trying to ask, but there isn't the kind of simple answer you're hoping for. There isn't just one "retention pass", it's like saying "I want to learn the false shuffle." There are lots of different versions, each with subtle, or not-so-subtle differences.
Here are several that come to mind immediately:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8AwbdM02Zs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZX9qymj9xU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmTDEowQd-g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8sPAu2o99A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt8AfJnjIeE
Most of them look different and are done differently. Two are the same creator, but different styles. Two look similar but result in different palms.
But to be honest, I probably wouldn't say a retention vanish is a requirement - it's just a nice-to-have. They're hard because people are burning your hands - you're basically saying "look at me while I do this thing" that they aren't supposed to see. It's much nicer to do it on the off-beat.

If I were to turn it around and ask you which is the best false shuffle to use, you'd probably say that it depends on a lot of other factors, and even if you said there was a best, three other magicians would probably have three new answers.

It's the same thing if I were to ask which force is best, or cut, or even which double lift technique (because there's still more than one), even though you know you need to learn something for each of those. Sure, it's great to have the flexibility to learn more than one, but you need to start somewhere, and there's no true answer to "best".

I'd get a DVD set for multiple sleights/palms/transfers. Heck, get two (three? Can I get a commission over here?) so you have a different selection/perspective/teaching style. Here was a comparison from long ago: http://www.coinvanish.com/compare.html but it's a bit limited - there are more than just 3 choices for instructor - or good sets - here. I'm (mostly) not kidding - it can help you get an early sense of different combinations and uses of these - and *then* you can pick which ones to focus on. It's like getting a quick into on some different ways of culling cards, and then picking the one you want to practice.

But back to what you should learn: pick a few palms you like. (Include finger palm.) Learn to transfer between them. Pick a false transfer - both a put and a take. Use shuttle passes with both. That'll get you pretty far. You can always branch out more, later.
RiderBacks
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Quote:
On Nov 14, 2017, tonsofquestions wrote: It's the same thing if I were to ask which force is best, or cut, or even which double lift technique (because there's still more than one), even though you know you need to learn something for each of those. Sure, it's great to have the flexibility to learn more than one, but you need to start somewhere, and there's no true answer to "best".


Not really. Given enough detail, there's a correct answer to "the best". Not everyone has it, of course, since we all operate with incomplete information, but there is a single, true answer. That's why sharing opinions (and reasons) is valuable. It's the best way of working towards the best answer. It's just not true that everybody is right and nobody is wrong. ;-)

Quote:
On Nov 14, 2017, tonsofquestions wrote: But back to what you should learn: pick a few palms you like. (Include finger palm.) Learn to transfer between them. Pick a false transfer - both a put and a take. Use shuttle passes with both. That'll get you pretty far. You can always branch out more, later.


So if you could only learn a single false transfer (put and/or take), which version would you pick for a Coins Across routine, and why? That's another way of asking much the same question. It drops the "best" language, but it's still asking for your take on the "best".
Andy Young
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Al Schneider's Special Export 2. The main sleight is the Max Al Ping Chien.

I will say that people keep saying there isn't a best and that is what I think too.

But some things I have used to success are Schneider Vanish, ROPS move, and Pop Up Move.
tonsofquestions
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Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, RiderBacks wrote:
Not really. Given enough detail, there's a correct answer to "the best". Not everyone has it, of course, since we all operate with incomplete information, but there is a single, true answer. That's why sharing opinions (and reasons) is valuable. It's the best way of working towards the best answer. It's just not true that everybody is right and nobody is wrong. ;-)


So there are two parts to this.
1) I never said that nobody is wrong. There are definitely *bad* sleights (slip up and show it, or just ones that are overly impractical). But I disagree that there can't be multiple people that have valid points of view and are all correct.

2) Given enough detail/restrictions, I do agree there are probably some that are better choices than others. But I don't know what other restrictions/requirements you have. Your first post said very little. Your later post rejected back palms and Goshman pinches. Tell us more about your requirements, and maybe we can reduce it further. But right now, there are still a very large number of options.
I'll put it another way: ask 10 people what the best false shuffle is, and you'll get 10 different answers. (I know, it might be less; I'm exaggerating. But it'll be more than 3.) Ask the same people what the best false in-the-hands riffle shuffle is, and you'll get a much smaller answer.

Quote:
So if you could only learn a single false transfer (put and/or take), which version would you pick for a Coins Across routine, and why? That's another way of asking much the same question. It drops the "best" language, but it's still asking for your take on the "best".


Tell me more about the routine you want to do. Spectator involvement? In-the-hands only? On a table? At the fingertips? (Closer to a 3-Fly?) The answers change.
The Gallo Pitch and/or Hang-Ping-Chien might be things you should look into, but are not false transfers, nor are they sufficient alone to do such a routine.
daniel116
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Coins across routines ate like ambitious card routines, they all involve at least 3 phases and everybody use different moves for each phase, no "best way".
One can find himself using different moves for the same exact routine, depending on the venue, are we performing for a single person, a small crowd? Are we being filmed?
I myself rarely perform coins across routines, that's a story for another discussion, but if I was to perform it, I'd use moves from Jay Sankey's Mr.clean coins across, Chris Kenner's in the hands 4 coins across, and classic versions I learned from David Stone's Basic Coin magic vol.1
fonda57
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I'd say any of the coins across in Bobo's that use 6 coins. And Daryl's Mysterious Cross of India. Good for a beginner because they are easy enough to get started with.

Pop Haydn's Coins Across is my favorite
funsway
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Kind of interesting to see the shuttle of thoughts related to "best" that is always subjective and needs no support, and "better" that always needs supportive evidence/argument.

A giving sleight or technique might be best for a specific effect because it better fits in with the abilities of the performer and flow of the routine.
For example, a "flash" type retention sleight might be better than a simple drop technique to have the observer believe the coin is in the receiving hand.
But, if the objective is to have the observer never even remember the coin was in the other hand, then this sleight is the worst possible.

The knowledge and love of any sleight should never be the driving force in suing it in an effect. Questions of what one is attempting to accomplish, the setting.
the experience with magic of the audience, etc. can all be more important considerations.

So, what is best is to master several techniques for a false transfer and be able to make a "better than" determination for a planned effect/routine.

Additionally, if you are called to perform a certain effect for an audience where many have already seen it, you may wish to use a different sleight to achieve the same objective.

Many readers know I am good at suggesting was to make effects/tricks better - but often fail to justify the effort to make them "the best."
The point is that any standard of "best" divers from the OP question of "required sleights." A technically poorer technique that you are comfortable with
may well be better than a lesser practiced one that you might fumble. What is best is the sleights you have practiced to automaticity.
Remember that all sleights are supposed to be of the "never happened" flavor.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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