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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
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On Nov 16, 2017, lynnef wrote: In RNK's example, I get it, but I think the social dynamic among the workers would make that scenario pretty rare. I agree that everyone should be compensated according to the value they add. Lynne's point that more and more people have only these low value jobs to choose from is true to a point, but ultimately taking the job is voluntary. To me, the fact that facing that choice is even a thing is what's really sad. We should be better.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Whose responsibility is it to gain souls necessary for well paying jobs?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
For whose benefit do we have our society? Or for whose benefit should we order our society?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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but ultimately taking the job is voluntary. No, the freedom to starve is not freedom.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On Nov 16, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote: When a union contributes it benefits thousands of workers; when a corporation buys political influence it benefits the CEO far more than anyone else.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On Nov 16, 2017, NYCTwister wrote: Owners of large corporations and workers have fundamentally different interests. Owners have a financial imperative to raise their profits; their main way of doing that is by paying their workers as little as they can get away with. Even if they are good guys, they must cut expenses or their profits will drop. If that happens, stockholders look elsewhere. Workers have only a few weapons to offset this downward wage pressure from employers--the primary one being the threat of the withholding of their labor as a group. This is what leads to negotiations and contracts. Every person who works a five day week; every cop who has a pension; every fireman who can get disability; every stock clerk who gets time and a half for overtime; every secretary who works a 40-hour work with a lunch break; every non-union person who still makes at least a minimum wage; every miner, construction worker, nuclear power plant operator, who works under at least minimal safety standards whether they are unionized or not owe those advances through the struggle, blood, tears and lives of those who fought for unions and continue to push back against those who would like to continue the race to the bottom. Yes, it would be nice to live in a world where owners and workers had the same economic interest, but they don't. Employers will sell out their workers in a minute if it means more profit for them. This is the historical fact. All you have to do is look at the countries where unions are weak or non-existent to understand what a society without unions would be like.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On Nov 16, 2017, landmark wrote: Nonsense
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
By the way corporations do not exist just to provide jobs. They exist to make money for those who own them.
In your world view things SHOULD be different, but that is reality. Let's not pretend it is evil or wrong to do so.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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They exist to make money for those who own them. I'm well aware. I think I've pointed out the profit imperative of capitalism many, many times. And some actually debated me about that!
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
You speak about it as if it were a bad thing.
Why would they exist if not to make money? And by the way you intentionally forget people own corporations. Pensions are invested in them and so on. But since that does not fit your narrativeit is left out.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Yes, I think the profit motive is a very, very, poor principle to design a society around. It has led to horrible wars, terrible exploitation, vast economic and social inequality, plundering of public resources by privateers, genocide, and institutional racism and sexism.
"People own corporations." You are talking about the .1% vs the 99.9%. Please don't tell me about the widows living off their dividends of AT&T stock. The corporations are owned by very wealthy people who use their vast wealth in order to corrupt any semblance of democracy, and to gain even more wealth. The market needs the poor suckers at the bottom to keep investing so the wealthy can continue to make a killing even when the market dives as they manipulate their risky derivatives.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
That is great propaganda and absolutely wrong. But it is consistent with your belief system.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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RNK Inner circle 7493 Posts |
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On Nov 16, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote: Exactly! NONSENSE! If you think Union bosses aren't getting rich and benefitting from other Union members you are truly blind and are speaking solely in support of your agenda and beliefs. So CEO's and people who start a business, invest their OWN money to start the business and spend countless hours working on AND off the job, making sure their workers get paid before they do, and ultimately IF, and that's a big IF, the business takes off the owner then starts reaping the benefits of his/her hard work and investment and is able to bank the profits, pay themselves back for their investment, and enjoy the fruit of his/her labor is wrong? Interesting, please let me know when you start a business so I can come work for you knowing you are going to not keep the profits but give me extra money for doing nothing extra but my job. Boy, that does sound nice!
Check out Bafflingbob.com
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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So CEO's and people who start a business, invest their OWN money to start the business and spend countless hours working on AND off the job, making sure their workers get paid before they do, This is one of the most hilarious things I've read on this site. Please tell me again how about poor Jamie Dimon has to wait for his 28 million dollar compensation while he pulls out his spare change to pay his bank tellers. I need a laugh. The pay of the highest paid union leader in the US makes about one-tenth of that. So the comparison is absolutely and deliberately misleading.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
It is generally non business owners who want all profits to go to employees.
Some businesses do it. But how is it a requirement for utopia? What exactly is the incentive for starting a business in the first place in utopia?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On Nov 17, 2017, landmark wrote: So a union leader needs to make 2.8 million dollars? Why is that when the average worker makes fsrx far less than that? Union leaders are not creating anything. They take. It can be argued a ceo earns money. Your political agenda doesn't allow for you to see it but it is true. Funny you mention needing a laugh and throw that out.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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Just the opposite. The union leader is providing a service for thousands of workers. S/he is substantially improving the workers' lives, and the union leader's livelihood depends on how well she or he does for the members. The CEO on the other hand is getting raises for coming up with new ways to cut worker's jobs, new ways to ship jobs overseas, so that the top echelon can get more money. And in terms of benefits to the rest of society, the average union worker spends almost every dollar of the raise that s/he gets back into the general economy. The CEOS offshore the money or put it into paper assets that benefit no one but themselves.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
When the union leader is accused of providing a service for thousands of dollars which is coming out of many penny ante wage packets and investing it with poor Jamie Dimon and the like, then should he lose his livelihood?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Let's see who is stealing wages out of workers' pay packets:
"Nationally it is estimated that workers are not paid at least $19 billion every year in overtime[14] and that in the US $40 billion to $60 billion in total are lost annually due to all forms of wage theft.[15] This compares to national annual losses of $340 million due to robbery, $4.1 billion due to burglary, $5.3 billion due to larceny, and $3.8 billion due to auto theft in 2012." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_theft Got that? Corporations steal more money every year from workers in wage theft than the national annual amount due to robbery, burglary, larceny, and auto theft combined.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
That is very interesting, thanks. I have never heard of any of that about workers are not paid before.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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