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RS1963
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On Nov 28, 2017, Cain wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 28, 2017, jaschris wrote:
The Diagonal Palm Shift is one of those moves I have practiced a lot but never actually used in a trick.


Ha, you're not alone. It's one of the most useless moves out there. Good luck making it work.


There are many out there that have put in the time and effort to use the D.P.S. To name just a few John Carney, Roger Klause, and Michael Skinner both used it. John Luca has work on it in L.I.N.T.
Cain
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On Nov 30, 2017, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
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On Nov 30, 2017, Cain wrote:
For the case against the DPS, I'll label that Exhibit A.


I can show you dozens of videos of magicians doing Topping the Deck poorly. But that wouldn't be an argument for it being a useless move.


It WOULD be an argument, just not a very good one. However, if, for example, someone developed what they called the X Move, and posted videos of the X Move being performed "perfectly," but fingers fluttered and the card flashed, then we might regard it as compelling evidence the move is not useful.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
RS1963
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John Carney even has a video teaching the details on D.P.S. also.
Cain
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On Nov 30, 2017, Pop Haydn wrote:
Diagonal Palm Steal is at 1:05 in my video.



Thanks for sharing. In that situation, I think the DPS might well be the most direct, efficient method. That said, I think your Loewy palm in the next phase was superior (but of course there's a trade-off that you must first control it to the top). And the other (talky) DPS, while perfectly timed, nevertheless underscores the hazards of the move.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Cain
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On Nov 30, 2017, RS1963 wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 28, 2017, Cain wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 28, 2017, jaschris wrote:
The Diagonal Palm Shift is one of those moves I have practiced a lot but never actually used in a trick.


Ha, you're not alone. It's one of the most useless moves out there. Good luck making it work.


There are many out there that have put in the time and effort to use the D.P.S. To name just a few John Carney, Roger Klause, and Michael Skinner both used it. John Luca has work on it in L.I.N.T.


Sure, but the payoff for the vast majority of people is just not going to be worth the effort. If I carried a nine-volt battery wherever I went, I might one day find a use for it, but chances are it's just a waste. The advantage of palming off the bottom is that you can use the deck for cover. With the DPS, you're swiveling the card into a bottom palm, and you don't even get the benefit of (much) deck cover. It's a rather disgusting move, and probably gets talked about (and practiced) all out of proportion precisely because it's so disgusting. It's like a riffle-force: something you should always strive to replace.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Rupert Pupkin
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On Nov 30, 2017, Cain wrote:
However, if, for example, someone developed what they called the X Move, and posted videos of the X Move being performed "perfectly," but fingers fluttered and the card flashed, then we might regard it as compelling evidence the move is not useful.


No, it would mean the move isn't being performed perfectly. (There's also a case to be made for invisible vs. imperceptible, but that's independent of the argument.)

What you're really saying, I think, is that you've never seen the move performed perfectly. Am I correct? If so, that has nothing to do with usefulness.

If, however, you see true flaws in the construction of the move itself, what are those flaws?

By the way, Vernon kills it at :55, here:

https://youtu.be/cZFhsxQc7rE
Rupert Pupkin
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On Nov 30, 2017, Cain wrote:
It's a rather disgusting move


What.
Steven Keyl
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My problem with the move is not the cover, but with the odd frontal insertion of the card that normally accompanies the DPS. That's the part that I worked to replace. I use 3 different methods that allow audience members to replace their own cards back in the deck and I'm able to go directly into the DPS.

For me, it's the fastest, most efficient way to steal a card. Of course, I'm not averse to palming off the bottom, but only if the trick is helped by delaying the palming action until after the card has been controlled to the bottom.
Steven Keyl

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
Rupert Pupkin
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On Nov 30, 2017, Steven Keyl wrote:
My problem with the move is not the cover, but with the odd frontal insertion of the card that normally accompanies the DPS. That's the part that I worked to replace. I use 3 different methods that allow audience members to replace their own cards back in the deck and I'm able to go directly into the DPS.

For me, it's the fastest, most efficient way to steal a card. Of course, I'm not averse to palming off the bottom, but only if the trick is helped by delaying the palming action until after the card has been controlled to the bottom.


Not a fan either. Much prefer working directly from an injog. Allows for disarming delay tactics.

Paul Chosse's handling from a spread is my favorite choice.
Cain
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Quote:
On Nov 30, 2017, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 30, 2017, Cain wrote:
However, if, for example, someone developed what they called the X Move, and posted videos of the X Move being performed "perfectly," but fingers fluttered and the card flashed, then we might regard it as compelling evidence the move is not useful.


No, it would mean the move isn't being performed perfectly.


The X Move is a fictional sleight that I just made up, yet you insist on polishing the turd.

Quote:
What you're really saying, I think, is that you've never seen the move performed perfectly. Am I correct?


No.

Quote:
If, however, you see true flaws in the construction of the move itself, what are those flaws?


This is discussed in the post above yours.

Quote:
By the way, Vernon kills it at :55, here:

https://youtu.be/cZFhsxQc7rE


I disagree, but in fairness, it's a demonstration of the move without context. With the DPS, people tend to rocket their hands to a pocket or below the table (as we might expect when something is being stolen). This is understandable, by the way, because the sleight tends to be unforgiving and leaky. I know, I know, not when it's done perfectly.

Maybe this can devolve into the classic argument about whether there are no crappy tricks (just crappy magicians) because one time you saw Tamariz ask someone to think of the number of cards that were cut and secretly counted under the table, and then that number led to an indicator card, which revealed the location of an earlier selection's mate, which caused everyone in the room to cream their shorts.

Also, there's more to the argument than performing the sleight perfectly. All of us have seen people perform remarkable stunts with cards, but they cannot perform these feats reliably.

And yes, it's a disgusting move. Even its name is unwieldy -- the diagonal palm shift. If sleights could be consigned to a junk drawer, the DPS would be in it, collecting dust alongside ATFUS.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Nov 30, 2017, Cain wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 30, 2017, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 30, 2017, Cain wrote:
However, if, for example, someone developed what they called the X Move, and posted videos of the X Move being performed "perfectly," but fingers fluttered and the card flashed, then we might regard it as compelling evidence the move is not useful.


No, it would mean the move isn't being performed perfectly.


The X Move is a fictional sleight that I just made up, yet you insist on polishing the turd.

Quote:
What you're really saying, I think, is that you've never seen the move performed perfectly. Am I correct?


No.

Quote:
If, however, you see true flaws in the construction of the move itself, what are those flaws?


This is discussed in the post above yours.

Quote:
By the way, Vernon kills it at :55, here:

https://youtu.be/cZFhsxQc7rE


I disagree, but in fairness, it's a demonstration of the move without context. With the DPS, people tend to rocket their hands to a pocket or below the table (as we might expect when something is being stolen). This is understandable, by the way, because the sleight tends to be unforgiving and leaky. I know, I know, not when it's done perfectly.

Maybe this can devolve into the classic argument about whether there are no crappy tricks (just crappy magicians) because one time you saw Tamariz ask someone to think of the number of cards that were cut and secretly counted under the table, and then that number led to an indicator card, which revealed the location of an earlier selection's mate, which caused everyone in the room to cream their shorts.

Also, there's more to the argument than performing the sleight perfectly. All of us have seen people perform remarkable stunts with cards, but they cannot perform these feats reliably.

And yes, it's a disgusting move. Even its name is unwieldy -- the diagonal palm shift. If sleights could be consigned to a junk drawer, the DPS would be in it, collecting dust alongside ATFUS.



I use it all the time, in every show formal or walkaround. I think it is deceptive and dependable, especially used with peeks. Doctor Daley combined it with the side steal to create the Double Peek and Bi-Lateral Side Steal and I think it is very strong and gets solid reactions.
Rupert Pupkin
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Cain, I started a lengthy post in response, but quickly realized I could sum it up in just a few sentences:

I know at least three (living) people who can perform the DPS reliably and imperceptibly, and use it regularly in performance. No finger flutter, no leaks. Based on that alone, I consider it useful.

There are both truly awful moves and truly awful magicians. But I don’t agree that this efficient, instantaneous sleight is one of them.

If you do — well whatever, my dude.
jaschris
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My post fired up some debate I see!
Thanks Steve for your suggestions about use. Dexterously performed in your Magic Castle Act may I say. I'm going to get out there and use it in the trick I'm working on. I will probably report back. As Pop says, a peek is a nice position to DPS from but I'm left handed. So I did come up with another way of getting the card into the DPS position ready for the steal without having to do the insertion method. Cards are spread in hands, spectator touches card. Cards are separated at that point and hand raised up in to a vertical position to show spectators card on edge of spread. My middle finger is on edge of card about half way down its length. Then as the two packets are brought together to coalesce I swivel the selection downward slightly with my middle finger. This puts the selection in a crooked diagonal position right as the packets coalesce. And hey presto, I am now in the DPS position. I'm sure it's not original but I have not seen it before on the multiple sources I have for learning the Diagonal Palm Shift. I'm quite proud of that little touch in case anyone chooses to use it.
magicfish
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On Nov 30, 2017, jaschris wrote:
My post fired up some debate I see!
Thanks Steve for your suggestions about use. Dexterously performed in your Magic Castle Act may I say. I'm going to get out there and use it in the trick I'm working on. I will probably report back. As Pop says, a peek is a nice position to DPS from but I'm left handed. So I did come up with another way of getting the card into the DPS position ready for the steal without having to do the insertion method. Cards are spread in hands, spectator touches card. Cards are separated at that point and hand raised up in to a vertical position to show spectators card on edge of spread. My middle finger is on edge of card about half way down its length. Then as the two packets are brought together to coalesce I swivel the selection downward slightly with my middle finger. This puts the selection in a crooked diagonal position right as the packets coalesce. And hey presto, I am now in the DPS position. I'm sure it's not original but I have not seen it before on the multiple sources I have for learning the Diagonal Palm Shift. I'm quite proud of that little touch in case anyone chooses to use it.

It is Paul Chosse's concept.
Cain
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To Pop and Rupert: Fair enough.

Quote:
On Nov 30, 2017, jaschris wrote:
So I did come up with another way of getting the card into the DPS position ready for the steal without having to do the insertion method. Cards are spread in hands, spectator touches card. Cards are separated at that point and hand raised up in to a vertical position to show spectators card on edge of spread. My middle finger is on edge of card about half way down its length. Then as the two packets are brought together to coalesce I swivel the selection downward slightly with my middle finger. This puts the selection in a crooked diagonal position right as the packets coalesce. And hey presto, I am now in the DPS position.


Sure, you could do that. Alternatively, why bother? Instead you could just cull the card, swivel it horizontal under the spread, and then deliver it directly into a bottom palm.

Advantage: You're swiveling the card under the cover of a spread rather than off the deck, which means you're covered from most angles.
Advantage: Taking the card into palm is motivated by the action of squaring up the spread.
Disadvantage: You lose the psychological benefit of including a storied and challenging move in your sleight-of-hand arsenal.
Disadvantage: All of the time spent practicing the DPS may feel wasted.

One of the more abstract arguments for the DPS is that it's a single action. Instead of doing a pass and then a palm (say), the DPS accomplishes both; this is supposed to make it efficient. However, the work-around here, which others have previously discovered, requires breaking the move up into two parts. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it undercuts one of the reasons the move is supposed to be oh-so-great.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Dec 1, 2017, Cain wrote:
To Pop and Rupert: Fair enough.

Quote:
On Nov 30, 2017, jaschris wrote:
So I did come up with another way of getting the card into the DPS position ready for the steal without having to do the insertion method. Cards are spread in hands, spectator touches card. Cards are separated at that point and hand raised up in to a vertical position to show spectators card on edge of spread. My middle finger is on edge of card about half way down its length. Then as the two packets are brought together to coalesce I swivel the selection downward slightly with my middle finger. This puts the selection in a crooked diagonal position right as the packets coalesce. And hey presto, I am now in the DPS position.


Sure, you could do that. Alternatively, why bother? Instead you could just cull the card, swivel it horizontal under the spread, and then deliver it directly into a bottom palm.

Advantage: You're swiveling the card under the cover of a spread rather than off the deck, which means you're covered from most angles.
Advantage: Taking the card into palm is motivated by the action of squaring up the spread.
Disadvantage: You lose the psychological benefit of including a storied and challenging move in your sleight-of-hand arsenal.
Disadvantage: All of the time spent practicing the DPS may feel wasted.

One of the more abstract arguments for the DPS is that it's a single action. Instead of doing a pass and then a palm (say), the DPS accomplishes both; this is supposed to make it efficient. However, the work-around here, which others have previously discovered, requires breaking the move up into two parts. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it undercuts one of the reasons the move is supposed to be oh-so-great.


That wouldn't help when it is used as part of a bi-lateral side-steal from two breaks.
Magic-Daniel
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Ricky Smith, Lance Pierce, David Williamson, Pop Haydn, Steve Ehlers all does the move flawlessly. But more important, understand to use the move in context....and when it is simply the best move to use for the trick and specific situation.

This discussion is like the pass as a good sleight in the real World. I have yet to hear a master of the pass or DPS say it isent a pratical move...only those who cant do either of the move
Pop Haydn
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I wouldn't say I do the move flawlessly. I can do it reliably and smoothly. I use it after naming from a glimpse two cards that were peeked at. When two more are peeked, the spectators are watching my eyes to see when I look at the deck at the moment I am squaring and stealing the two cards. I keep working on it to make it flawless, but it is a long process. Shade is essential.
jaschris
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Thanks Magicfish for identifying Paul Chosse as man behind swivel of card from spread into DPS position. I stumbled upon it too easily to think I was the first to get there.
Rattooth
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Bernard Bilis, Aaron Fisher. Two more people I know that can do the DPS . ( And you will never catch them.)
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