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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Diagonal Palm Shift used in actual performance (16 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Cain
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Quote:
On Dec 1, 2017, Pop Haydn wrote:
That wouldn't help when it is used as part of a bi-lateral side-steal from two breaks.


And it won't help with the dishes either.

Maybe I was mistaken calling the DPS "one of the most useless moves." Now that I think about it, we're constantly holding double-breaks so that each hand can hold a selection in full palm.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Cain
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Quote:
On Dec 1, 2017, Magic-Daniel wrote:
I have yet to hear a master of the pass or DPS say it isent a pratical move...only those who cant do either of the move


Solid reasoning.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Cain
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Quote:
On Dec 2, 2017, Rattooth wrote:
Bernard Bilis, Aaron Fisher. Two more people I know that can do the DPS . ( And you will never catch them.)


You can more plausibly argue that civilians will never catch them. At the end of the day, every move is a move.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Magic-Daniel
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@Cain.

I am right that you can't do the move flawlessly yourself?
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Dec 2, 2017, Cain wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 1, 2017, Pop Haydn wrote:
That wouldn't help when it is used as part of a bi-lateral side-steal from two breaks.


And it won't help with the dishes either.

Maybe I was mistaken calling the DPS "one of the most useless moves." Now that I think about it, we're constantly holding double-breaks so that each hand can hold a selection in full palm.


But it isn't useless if you have a need for it. I learned it to do this routine. It took a number of years. I don't feel I wasted the time, even if I only use it once in a performance.
Cain
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Quote:
On Dec 2, 2017, Magic-Daniel wrote:
@Cain.

I am right that you can't do the move flawlessly yourself?


I wanted to avoid getting bogged down in semantics, but that now seems unlikely. People in this thread have thrown around words like "flawlessly" and "perfectly"; in my more sober moments, I refuse to use these words without air-quotes.

Now try to think about your original question for a moment. Why would someone labor to "flawlessly" execute a move he believes is deeply flawed? To wit, even if such a person could perform the move "flawlessly" by others' standards, it will still fall short of his own. We see a similar dynamic in this very thread. "Here's a video of so-and-so performing the move perfectly." I watch the video and reach a different conclusion.

Also, why should "flawlessness" be the standard? What about performing the move competently? One well-known problem with the DPS is its sensitivity to angles. I would practice it, and it could look decent from one perspective, but not so hot from a slightly different perspective, putting its usefulness more in line with Youtube moves that can look phenomenal for the camera, but are not well-suited for the real-world.

I realize that for defenders of the move, angle sensitivity is more like a "challenge" than a "problem," and the "masters" mentioned throughout this thread know how to tame their angles for each audience. An analogy might involve how golden retrievers can be relatively easy to train, but a true master can make tigers behave like pussycats. You know, guys like Siegfried & Roy.

Having seen many of the people who allegedly execute the move "flawlessly," I wonder if the move is supposed to occasionally click and flash. The problem with these minor tells is that they're easily eliminated by using alternative sleights. We're not living in the 1800s; new techniques and subtleties have been created.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Cain
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Quote:
On Dec 2, 2017, Pop Haydn wrote:
But it isn't useless if you have a need for it. I learned it to do this routine. It took a number of years. I don't feel I wasted the time, even if I only use it once in a performance.


Your calculus strikes me as intuitive but misguided (like being an Aristotelian in a quantum universe). Economists -- people who study the science of trade-offs -- have provided us with powerful tools on how to think. Time spent learning one move is time spent NOT learning something else.

So, for example, an accountant in the mid-90s might say Jordan made $300,000 playing baseball. "Congratulations, Michael, you're in the top 1%." An economist, however, will say playing baseball cost Jordan over $30,000,000. This is because while his Airness earns hundreds of thousands hitting a ball, he could've made tens of millions shooting one.

People are naturally reluctant to believe past decisions are unwise or wasteful, especially if those decisions made them who they are. It can be difficult to regret things that never occurred.

As for the one performance standard... A person can make a more persuasive argument that practicing a move he never used even once was worth it because that practice helped him learn and appreciate lessons that have been applied in hundreds of performances. But for an unremarkable one-off performance? The old cliche rings true, "You don't know what you're missing."

Then again, I'm convinced a lot of people here believe time spent mindlessly practicing the DPS is not as wasteful as time spent thinking about and debating it.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
magicfish
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Speaking of economy, the DPS is one of the most economical moves in all of magic. Remember, doing the move expertly includes misdirection. It is the misdirection that makes it invisible as much as its proper execution.
The card is placed in the deck. that's it.
Nothing happens.
Ingenious.
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Dec 3, 2017, Cain wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 2, 2017, Pop Haydn wrote:
But it isn't useless if you have a need for it. I learned it to do this routine. It took a number of years. I don't feel I wasted the time, even if I only use it once in a performance.


Your calculus strikes me as intuitive but misguided (like being an Aristotelian in a quantum universe). Economists -- people who study the science of trade-offs -- have provided us with powerful tools on how to think. Time spent learning one move is time spent NOT learning something else.

So, for example, an accountant in the mid-90s might say Jordan made $300,000 playing baseball. "Congratulations, Michael, you're in the top 1%." An economist, however, will say playing baseball cost Jordan over $30,000,000. This is because while his Airness earns hundreds of thousands hitting a ball, he could've made tens of millions shooting one.

People are naturally reluctant to believe past decisions are unwise or wasteful, especially if those decisions made them who they are. It can be difficult to regret things that never occurred.

As for the one performance standard... A person can make a more persuasive argument that practicing a move he never used even once was worth it because that practice helped him learn and appreciate lessons that have been applied in hundreds of performances. But for an unremarkable one-off performance? The old cliche rings true, "You don't know what you're missing."

Then again, I'm convinced a lot of people here believe time spent mindlessly practicing the DPS is not as wasteful as time spent thinking about and debating it.


You may have misunderstood. I use it once in every performance I do. It is an essential part of my closeup show. I don't feel I wasted time learning the move. It makes me smile every time I do it.
MagicianInTrouble
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RS1963
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By the way the D.P.S. is not meant to be a bottom palm or used as a tool to put the card on the bottom of the deck.
SimonCard
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@ RS1963
Then what is it meant to be used for??
Thanks.
Rattooth
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Palm card to pocket, or maybe lap, holdout .Not replace on bottom of deck.
RS1963
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Quote:
On Dec 8, 2017, SimonCard wrote:
@ RS1963
Then what is it meant to be used for??
Thanks.

As a means for stealing the card out of the deck. Are there better methods? Depends on what is best for each person, and or the situation etc..... Michale Skinner used it at the end of his version of Leipzig's Opener. and an elevator cards routine. Roger Klause used it in "What's good for the Goose Is..." There are other effects that other's have used it for card to impossible location etc.... None of those effects place the card on the bottom after the D.P.S.
Cain
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Quote:
On Dec 3, 2017, Pop Haydn wrote:You may have misunderstood. I use it once in every performance I do. It is an essential part of my closeup show. I don't feel I wasted time learning the move. It makes me smile every time I do it.


I thought it was pretty clear that I was responding to this line, "I don't feel I wasted the time, even if I only use it once in a performance."
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Cain
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Quote:
On Dec 3, 2017, magicfish wrote:
Speaking of economy, the DPS is one of the most economical moves in all of magic. Remember, doing the move expertly includes misdirection. It is the misdirection that makes it invisible as much as its proper execution.
The card is placed in the deck. that's it.
Nothing happens.
Ingenious.


Yeah, well it's not as efficient as my Z-Move. For the Z-Move I show a selection, then, under the cover of misdirection, I put the card into my pocket. Most efficient and direct move in magic, the Z-Move.

The frontal insertion is another problem with the DPS, and one of the more obvious work-arounds is Tamariz's Perpendicular Control, which has superior cover for the protruding card, and equally superior cover for palming. The drawback, of course, is that you have to spread through the deck, but so many of the ruses for the DPS require the same bit of nonsense (dribbling the cards, or riffling the cards), it's a wonder anyone even bothers.

A top change obviously works under the cover of misdirection, but it's rarely a good idea to have a card selected, shown around, taken back, and then top-changed. Spectators are on high-alert, which is why the top change typically occurs after an effect. If I recall correctly, this is when, how and why Haydn uses it the second time in his routine, and it works, and he uses it in every performance. Nevertheless, I still regard it as one of more useless moves. In the case of the OP, there were better alternatives.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
magicfish
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Quote:
On Dec 9, 2017, Cain wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 3, 2017, magicfish wrote:
Speaking of economy, the DPS is one of the most economical moves in all of magic. Remember, doing the move expertly includes misdirection. It is the misdirection that makes it invisible as much as its proper execution.
The card is placed in the deck. that's it.
Nothing happens.
Ingenious.


Yeah, well it's not as efficient as my Z-Move. For the Z-Move I show a selection, then, under the cover of misdirection, I put the card into my pocket. Most efficient and direct move in magic, the Z-Move.

The frontal insertion is another problem with the DPS, and one of the more obvious work-arounds is Tamariz's Perpendicular Control, which has superior cover for the protruding card, and equally superior cover for palming. The drawback, of course, is that you have to spread through the deck, but so many of the ruses for the DPS require the same bit of nonsense (dribbling the cards, or riffling the cards), it's a wonder anyone even bothers.

A top change obviously works under the cover of misdirection, but it's rarely a good idea to have a card selected, shown around, taken back, and then top-changed. Spectators are on high-alert, which is why the top change typically occurs after an effect. If I recall correctly, this is when, how and why Haydn uses it the second time in his routine, and it works, and he uses it in every performance. Nevertheless, I still regard it as one of more useless moves. In the case of the OP, there were better alternatives.

The Top Change requires misdirection as well.
To mirror your sarcasm:
Yeah, well the top change is good but my x-move is better. I misdirect them and I just thtow the card over my shouler and grab the next one off the top.
Very silly indeed.
The problem with your z-move is that there IS no insertion into the deck.
This is what generates the conviction.
A card is simply placed into the deck, and the deck is placed on the table. Nothing has happened yet, nor will it happen. When the card reappears elsewhere, thanks to the DPS, it is an impossibility.
Ricardo Delgado
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Although I never even tried to learn this move, I think I can understand both sides of the debate.

It is, as other have said, a difficult move and hard to master. As any other move, it needs cover of some kind. I'm just assuming here that an "invisible" and "undetectable" move based solely on technique does not exist. All moves need cover of some degree.

Also, as it happens with other methods or techniques, there is almost always another way to do it or to perform it. It has been pointed out that depending on the situation, other moves can offer a better, and more economical, solution. I agree.

For what I saw on those videos, the DPS looks very nice. But, after watching some of the videos, you can notice the pattern: the DPS has its tells. That fact, combined with the difficulty to learn it properly and difficulty to apply it on a trick, may make one magician assume the cost of practice won't bring the same level of benefits, despite the move being a great tool to others.

However, I feel that is a very personal decision. After all, we are talking about art. And, the main point here is to fool the "civilians" right? Or any of you earn your living on fooling and entertaining only magicians?

Cain, I agree with a lot of what you said, but I think two things are a bit off:

1) You seem to choose well your words and to value semantics. Maybe "useless" (or even "the most useless") is not the best description of the move, as some people use it. By definition, is not useless. It may be useless to you, but being able to see right through it when others are performing is not enough of an argument to call it useless. I believe any more experienced magician can detect most of the moves in a performance by the little "tells" each one has, and by contest. And I don't think we are labeling DL, false shuffles, false cuts, top changes, etc, as useless.

2) All that discourse about economy feels a bit off. We are performers of an art. Not all decisions must be made only with "economy" or "efficiency" in mind. Some are emotional, some are personal choices. I understand we need to base ourselves in some science (and some solid concepts), but in the end, the "efficiency" we want is related on how the spectators perceive that magical moment. I think the main point is: a move is a move, but the way to apply it and to execute it (assuming the same skill level) can be completely different for two different performers, which can be the difference between success and failure.

I don't think discussions like this are useless. For me they are a great way to begin the evaluation process of the cost/benefit relation some move might have. Or even in what situations a specific move could be very useful.
Bill Hallahan
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Cain wrote:
Quote:
The frontal insertion is another problem with the DPS

This is not true. Some other things you have written about the DPS are also not correct.

There is a handling by the late Paul Chosse that justifies this, which I am not going to repeat here. He used the DPS.

Dai Vernon was a big fan of the move. I have heard he practiced it often. If it wasn't worthwhile, I don't think he would have used it.

Unlike some of the good controls you mentioned, when someone puts their card in the middle of the deck, and then the magician pushes it all the way in, the audience typically "knows" that the magician cannot have controlled the card. Because of this, the magician can easily move the moment the magic takes place.

I've used the DPS before, and found it to be very effective.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
SimonCard
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DPS can be done on peeked cards and dribbled cards.
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