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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
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On Dec 10, 2017, landmark wrote: Neither did a FaceBook post. That's the point. NO laws will ever force a mind to change what it thinks.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
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On Dec 11, 2017, Anand Khalsa wrote: Anand!! What's up? I see you've lost your mind and returned. Of course there were many positive things to come out of what was done, and I'm in line with the values. I don't have time to get into it now but I will later. For now, what it comes down to for me is that free must actually be free. That's my narrow view of American ideology, which I try to apply from the longest possible distance - as much as possible.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On Dec 11, 2017, NYCTwister wrote: A business that does business with the general public such as a restaurant. That distinction is already a well recognized distinction under the law.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
I half way agree with Landmark that anyone that hangs up a sign asking for business from the public SHOULD be obligation to do business with anybody that walks in. You would think that they would want to on their own oh. But I’m not sure there is a clear law saying they absolutely must. While we have consumer protection laws for safety and such most all the discrimination laws were written for hiring and protecting employees. I know there are some price discrimination laws to stop a business from charging different prices to different people. Customers have a right to choose who they do business with, but the business also has a right to choose within reason. One example, a daycare for children shouldn’t be forced to accept a 50 year old man, and it shouldn’t have to worry about being sued for age discrimination. I’m sure there other examples that show the business has a right to choose. It's that word 'within reason' that becomes questionable.
Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On Dec 11, 2017, NYCTwister wrote: Laws aren't meant to change minds, although they may eventually have that effect over generations as Anand points out; but laws don't have to change minds, they merely have to change an unjust situation. That's what happened with the civil rights laws of the sixties. Anybody who thinks that overturning those laws is going to promote racial justice is badly deluded. And the situation will not be rectified by FB or Yelp reviews, but blood and struggle once again, as they were in the sixties.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On Dec 11, 2017, TomBoleware wrote: Tom: http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/news......87a.html
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Should force/threat of violence (ie the law) be used to make a business owner do work or serve clients against their consciences?
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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The fact that you are surprised (minboggled!) by the majority viewpoint here suggests you may have been inhabiting an echo-chamber or ideological bubble, which cannot be intellectually healthy. This is another good reason to stick around. Do you realise how prevalent the viewpoint the majority here represents actually is? Why do you think that may be so? Because, among other reasons, capitalism is in severe crisis, both parties in the US have no answer for the economic backsliding that is occurring for the majority of workers, and people turn to scapegoating and blaming others to explain their situation when they can't understand what has actually happened--this is a classic historical pattern. Quote:
Regarding your view on baker's and hoteliers, I admit I'm confused by what appears to me to be a somewhat immoral and incoherent position. You would force a Jewish sign writer who, say, made a sign publicising an Anti-Semitic rally to also make a pro-Nazi poster? Yet wouldn't force a Christian baker to make a cake for a gay wedding when they make cakes for heterosexual weddings because somehow these are different, and yet also force a hotel owner to rent rooms to gay weddings if they have previously catered for heterosexual weddings because somehow these are the same thing? Help me understand your view, and how this will solve our current societal problems. These are, as others have pointed out, angels on the head of a pin question. I can easily shift my position on this to be more specific. that is, that a business would very narrowly only have to do for one group what it precisely did for others--that is, it would only have to make an anti-Semitic poster if it did the anti-Semiic posters for others. But, again, these hypotheticals distract from the real discrimination that goes on. Quote:
This is not a healthy state of society - it is riddled with an ideological cancer. And the answer is freedom, not repression. Agreed ideological cancer, but not in the direction you are implying. You take a few over reactions and turn them into a reason to dismantle all the protections won with blood and tears over decades. Why would you want to pull people down again, to get some perceived advantage? Here's a hypothetical for you: You get a chance to sign up again with regard to color (as an old Louis CK routine posits). Do you think you will do better in life as white or non-white?
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Landmark, that link doesn’t show anything. Page moved.
Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On Dec 11, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote: That is the nature of law. No matter what my conscience says I will be fined or put in jail if I break it. More specifically, yes, in the US if you say Blacks cannot be served in your restaurant, you can and should be subject to the full measure of the law. No idea what the law is in the UK.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 11, 2017, TomBoleware wrote: Sorry Tom. Try this: http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/news......87a.html
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Landmark:
"people turn to scapegoating and blaming others to explain their situation" Who is scapegoating whom? You mean that people complaining about free speech erosions are scape-goating black/LGBT/female/etc people? That sounds highly unlikely to me. How would you support that claim? "These are, as others have pointed out, angels on the head of a pin question" Obviously not for libertarians who decide all on the same principled basis Only discriminators have to deal with the thorny issues - which, it seems to me, are irresolvable in any fair or consistent fashion outside of classical liberal doctrines. "I can easily shift my position on this to be more specific. that is, that a business would very narrowly only have to do for one group what it precisely did for others--that is, it would only have to make an anti-Semitic poster if it did the anti-Semiic posters for others." So, having now shifted, you must change your view on the hoteliers who refuse to host a gay wedding upon pain of inconsistency. Which bullet are you prepared to bite: forcing Jews to make Nazi propaganda, or allowing hotels to refuse to host gay weddings? "these hypotheticals distract from the real discrimination that goes on." Totally disagree. And I've supplemented my hypotheticals with real cases - it's just easier to come up with hypotheticals that cut to the nub of the ideological divide between us rather than spending ages Googling the exact details of RL cases. Thought experiments are often used in ethical philosophy to elucidate positions or check for consistency. They are legitimate in this debate, and generally more useful in discussing paradigms and principles than RL cases with all their 'fluff'. "You take a few over reactions" I'm taking my constant daily experiences in UK academia mixed with the daily news cycle. Again, if you think this is just a few isolated over-reactions I have to question whether or not you inhabit a bubble of like-minds and echoed opinions? Do you only read a certain small section of news sources or talk to only a small subgroup of insiders? Sorry if that comes off as patronising, but it is something I see often - and some of your remarks sound like it might be the case. "Why would you want to pull people down again, to get some perceived advantage?" Who is being pulled down if I afford exactly the same rights to everyone? It seems odd that you should accuse me of pulling some people down when it is exactly the crux of your position that some people be disadvantaged or disallowed to follow their consciences but not others. "Here's a hypothetical for you: You get a chance to sign up again with regard to color (as an old Louis CK routine posits). Do you think you will do better in life as white or non-white?" In modern day UK with all other things being equal, I'd get some advantage out of being non-white. "in the US if you say Blacks cannot be served in your restaurant, you can and should be subject to the full measure of the law." Why should that law exist? And should it only exist for blacks, or for all people groups? |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
1.Whites scapegoating non-whites, immigrants. See most recent US election.
2. Libertarianism is filled with inconsistencies, as are other political positions. What matters is whether they are relevant int he real world. 3. No, they are renting the same room. 4. Don't know what RL cases are, but see #2. 5. Vast disproportion in cause and effect. See my OP in this thread which most are not even aware of. 6. Can I follow my conscience to steal from you, if I really really believe it? Can I keep what I stole if I really really believe it? 7. I think you're fooling yourself. Talk about living in a bubble. 8. You can read the Civil Rights laws. They don't mention specific races. A Black-owned restaurant cannot deny service to whites. They exist because people fought and died to overcome racist oppression.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 11, 2017, landmark wrote: Thanks. I have always said those type signs didn’t mean much if questioned legally. But I guess it would be something for the business owner to point to if they had to throw someone out for disturbance. And that they could do. But now the no shirt, no shoes, no service signs is different. It reads like we treat everyone alike. Whereas the other one reads we can pick and choose at will. It all comes down to the purpose of the business. And I agree, a business set up to serve the public has to do that, serve the public. Something like a wholesaler doesn't have to sell to people on the street because that is not its purpose. Or if I only sold pants to one legged people I couldn't be forced to add the extra leg. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I guess government should just run all businesses.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Landmark:
"1.Whites scapegoating non-whites, immigrants. See most recent US election." That's quite a statement. You think that Trump becoming president was because white people were scape-goating non-whites. How would you support such a claim? "2. Libertarianism is filled with inconsistencies, as are other political positions. What matters is whether they are relevant int he real world." So I can improve my political worldview, please point out my inconsistencies. "3. No, they are renting the same room." Aren't they making the same type of cake? This seems an obvious inconsistency in your POV. "4. Don't know what RL cases are, but see #2." So you think that philosophy shouldn't utilise thought experiments? "5. Vast disproportion in cause and effect." I'm not sure what you mean here. Can you be clearer? "6.Can I follow my conscience to steal from you" No. I don't think laws against theft are the same as laws forcing you to do business with those who you don't want to do business with. You didn't actually answer the direct question. "7. I think you're fooling yourself. Talk about living in a bubble." Which news sources do you use? "8. You can read the Civil Rights laws. They don't mention specific races." But they mention race. What things do you think people should be allowed to discriminate on, and which not? Why? |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Moving back onto the key topic/thread title - what sorts of speech do people think should not be free?
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Fire in a crowded theater leaps to mind.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Sure. What would that be classified as?
Also: conspiracy to commit crime; credible, direct threats and incitements to physical violence; slander and libel; copyright infringements. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
1. Not allowed here. Look at the voting demographics and campaign statements if you need a clue.
2. Ignore inevitability of monopolies and oligarchies forming and their self-reinforcing nature; ignore that power differences already exist and "free market" can only amplify those differences. 3. If same cake, then no right to refuse. My impression was different cakes, so yes. 4. I already addressed that. Philosophy is fine as a mental game; if you want to actually apply it to the real world, then focus on real questions. 5. Far more damage done by overturning civil rights laws than leaving them; and much selective attention on what you think is unfair to the exclusion of much greater harms. 6. That was my answer. Just because something is against your conscience doesn't mean it's sacred and must be catered to. 7. Take a look at any reliable source on income, job discrimination, healthcare availability, housing discrimination, inequality before the law. 8. Yes, laws about discrimination mention the word race. How could they not? Your post mentions the word race. Does that make it racist? Really, I've said what I have to say many times now, you're just repeating the same questions. I think our differences are far too wide for me to convince or persuade you; that's not my intention anyway. It's to provide people who are on the fence about these questions to think more about them. You might want to have a read of the article I posted for Tom so that you'd get a better view of what the situation is in the US.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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