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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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comic signoff: consider Title III in light of "transgender" issues. Smile Oh boy, that's a whole different issue, and one with which I probably disagree equally with the majority of the left and right. But that subject deserves its own thread, and I have far too little time to get embroiled in that can of worms.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Landmark:
I admit I'm getting frustrated with your repeated misrepresentations of my position. Please tell me it isn't deliberate. . Have you just got tired of this discussion? I don't want there to be laws that stop businesses from discriminating. This has been clear since the beginning. I think where you're going wrong is that you define this lack of law as a bigoted law, whereas I define a bigoted law as an actual law (like the racist laws that existed pre civil rights era) rather than an absence of a law. Does that make sense? The rest of your post has nothing to do with my POV. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On Dec 11, 2017, landmark wrote: Unless you've got a working time machine... that's not helping us improve our operating test for 'fair'. Recalling the notion that exceptions prove the rule and looking at Exodus 21 I'm not sure when you'd want to start that clock. #NeanterthalLivesMatterToo? Today, please, for us
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
#neanderthallivesmattertoo - lol
It's ok to be Homo Erectus. |
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Anand Khalsa Loyal user Phoenix, AZ 201 Posts |
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On Dec 11, 2017, NYCTwister wrote: Doing pretty well, yourself? I likely won't be here for long, I don't know what got into me lol. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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Landmark: TW, let's be very clear: did you advocate that businesses should be allowed to be racist and be able to deny service to whomever they like? If no, then I am sorry, I have misunderstood you. If yes, I have not.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On Dec 11, 2017, Jonathan Townsend wrote: See the referenced wiki article, Jon. It explains it quite unambiguously. Really, do we have to play these games?
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
I likely won't be here for long, I don't know what got into me lol.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Anand Khalsa Loyal user Phoenix, AZ 201 Posts |
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On Dec 11, 2017, landmark wrote: ;) |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Per your quoted wiki article: "On April 4, 2017, the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in Chicago, sitting en banc, ruled that Title VII of the Act forbids discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation by a vote of 8-3.[66][67] Over the prior month, panels of both the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit in Atlanta and the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in New York City had reached the opposite conclusion, finding that Title VII sex discrimination does not include claims based on sexual orientation.[68]"
We have a long, long way to go. We still have institutional bigots fear-mongering with tales of fantasy misdeeds - as they engage in ... it's gotta look like a sitcom from outside our society. Cue laugh-track. Comic signoff: And you probably still feel it's okay to turn off your PC and iPhone Siri doesn't forget. HAL forgives.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
To the matter of cakes: Do I really need to read a contract when asking a bakery to bake a cake for a party? That puts a much greater cost into the process. Hold on, you better not be wearing a grey tee shirt. We don't serve those people. Cost/benefit analysis
Old arguments... This discussion almost reads like the "I'm free to swing my arm" argument. Do your rights end at the end of your arm and the start of my economic benefits? Of course you can imagine rights or even unicorns. You can imagine you have rights and a unicorn. To others it could just as well be the "I know it when I see it" definition. But can you afford to bring it to court and make the case? History? Maybe if you can play just the right note of "victim" you can get your special pleading heard on pity rather than merit. And a law that benefits a very few while costing many more. Take a number, still serving pity to ...where were we? Position statement: Back in highschool, in an English class, the teacher remarked that we face the real risk of losing our rights - especially if we can't defend or argue for our rights. So over the years it seemed a reasonable question to investigate: our moral history and our society's position on the matter in law and everyday matters. All roads seem paved with philosophy. Even turning on the TV to find a fictional detective Colombo reviewed as Socratic. From Plato to Rand and Rawls - the arguments continue. If you want fair - or just - or whatever you want someone else to believe as even rational you may need to cite something to back up the claims. Hence the references to our older books, Roman Law (the argument of Cicero) ... else it's all "...but I know it when I see it" and hoping someone wants a pet Dodo. False flag or maybe game theory? Ignorance is unproductively willful or a social right? Is it bigotry or legitimate personal taste? Where's the social boundary between what reflects upon the speaker and what harms us? Cue laugh track or cut to commercial?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Landmark:
You seem to now be misunderstanding your own misunderstanding!!! lol. Yes, I advocate that businesses should be allowed to discriminate/ serve who they want. Given your last few posts it's still obvious you've misrepresented me, deliberately or not, though. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Jonathan:
I wish you'd write in an easy to follow, standard prose aimed at an audience that isn't familiar with your in jokes and oblique references. Easier for imbeciles like me to follow . At the moment it's simply too much hard work to read your posts so I simply skip them. That isn't good for anyone. For example, I have no idea where you stand on this issue. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On Dec 12, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote: Then there's been no misunderstanding. Just to be clear, I am not questioning your motives, TW or saying that you are racist. I don't believe at all that you are. But what I believe very strongly, for all the reasons I've given many times above, is that such a policy would be disastrous and continue to intensify the racism that occurred between 1776 and 1964. You have provided no evidence to the contrary. I understand that you feel another higher principle is at work. But it doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what really happens and happened in the real world.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Landmark:
I think there has been quite a few misunderstandings, but rather than just argue back and forth about it, others can re-read our exchanges if they're the remotest bit interested (lol) and make up their own minds. For me, the key areas of misunderstanding involved: has 'my' system been enacted in the past and what counts as a racist law. But it doesn't matter. "TW or saying that you are racist. I don't believe at all that you are. But what I believe very strongly, for all the reasons I've given many times above, is that such a policy would be disastrous and continue to intensify the racism that occurred between 1776 and 1964." Obviously we disagree on this prediction, but there's clearly no way of knowing. What I do know, however, is that we currently live in a time of discrimination, liberty erosion and the destruction of liberal values, and that 'my' system would end that. If it would also have future unintended consequences I cannot predict (nor do I think you can). Let's say I agree with you (I don't, but for argument's sake) that my libertarian principles would result in very negative unintended consequences, what alternative would you forward to remove the problems currently faced regarding religious people being forced out of the public sphere, hate speech crime enforcement, academic de-platforming, affirmative action racism, and the such like? Or are you content with the status quo? "I understand that you feel another higher principle is at work. But it doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what really happens and happened in the real world." My beliefs affect my real world interactions - so this is very much a real world issue And one only has to watch a few anti-SJW youtubes to become fairly well acquainted with RL freedom erosions (esp in Europe and academia). So I reject the implicit notion that somehow you are the only one here dealing with reality. I actually think I've got a better grasp on reality then you do - as your echo-chamber surprise at the majority viewpoint here indicated. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On Dec 12, 2017, landmark wrote: Then how do I get my cake? Do I call each bakery and ask? Then after I show up am I gonna be told 'sorry we decided not to make the cake' and have to: 1) Deal with not having the cake 2) Deal with efforts lost for planning the party 3) Deal with attempting to recover costs incurred in items 1 and 2 above? Now if I own a cake shop - can I put the notes from requests I refused up on my Facebook page in posts about awkward customer requests? No, I'm not gonna figure out how to spell out "Our dog is the greatest" in bacon strips for a cake covered in Indian good luck signs... even if the dog face design for their puppy mu-mu is cute.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
"Then how do I get my cake? Do I call each bakery and ask?"
Those without telepathy usually have to do it that way. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
How many bakeries do you expect to have making cakes so you can feel confident in getting one for your party?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Dunno. I've never had a cake made. Just buy 'em ready made from supermarket, like most other people. Or make them myself. In the UK, I guess there's at least one baker in every town. With the internet I imagine I'd find a baker willing to bake almost any type of cake within a couple of hours searching.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
The supermarket refuses to sell you the cake...
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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