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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Everyone knows it's just magic... right? (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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RealityOne
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Quote:
On Dec 24, 2017, MeetMagicMike wrote:

The tests done Dr Rhine with Zener cards were a card trick and many were taken in. Just because your uncle does a few math tricks doesn't mean a someone with "a genuine gift" couldn't use them in a demonstration.


I should have said, excluding Zener cards and Tarot... your exception proves my rule.

Quote:
On Dec 24, 2017, MeetMagicMike wrote:
And I'm not sure why you are talking about card tricks at all. The original poster did not specify what kind of magic he performed.


Forum Section - "Pick a Card, Any Card"
Forum Name - "The Workers"

Quote:
On Dec 24, 2017, MeetMagicMike wrote:

Let's educate people rather than insulting them.


You've missed my point. I was more addressing the triviality of how most magic, especially card magic, is presented.
~David

Any perception of reality is a selection of reality which results in a distortion of reality.
MeetMagicMike
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Points taken RealityOne

We both seem to agree that card magic can be presented as real magic or not. Many performers have as there goal to convince people that magic is real and this CAN be accomplished with cards (because not all card tricks are trivial).

RealityOne wrote:

Quote:
Anyone who believes the performance of a card trick is evidence of supernatural powers deserves to be left in their state of ignorance. As they say, ignorance is bliss.


Did I really miss your point? Is that a statement about how card magic is presented? It sure reads like a comment on people who are fooled.
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lynnef
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Ignorance is not always blissful, even though it was considered a sin to eat from the Tree of knowledge (actually it was knowledge of good and evil...imagine not knowing the difference!). People can learn to divest themselves of supernatural beliefs, and yet 'suspend belief' in watching a magic show or even just watching a movie. Good grief, I don't believe in religion, but I do still believe in Santa Claus, and really strong card tricks! Merry Xmas to all! Lynn
Dandin
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The magic can be real without pretending that it is real. Just tell them that is real as movies and theatre plays are real.
RealityOne
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Quote:
On Dec 24, 2017, MeetMagicMike wrote:

We both seem to agree that card magic can be presented as real magic or not. Many performers have as there goal to convince people that magic is real and this CAN be accomplished with cards (because not all card tricks are trivial).


I would classify the use of Zener cards as mentalism and the use of Tarot cards as more esoteric magic, neither of those are typical card magic. I don't think that anyone can convince a spectator that they have real magical powers based on a pick-a-card trick, an ambitious card routine, ace assembly or even a matrix. I would suggest that anyone who thinks otherwise is either an amazing performer or is deluding themselves. Playing cards are inherently trivial (as opposed to Zener cards which have a backstory that relates to psychic phenomena and Tarot which are inherently esoteric). Most performances consist of what Eugene Burger called narration of the adventures of the props in the performer's hands.

I'm not saying you can't convey enjoyment, astonishment, illusion or even meaning through a card trick, I'm just saying it is intrinsically trivial.

Quote:
On Dec 24, 2017, MeetMagicMike wrote:

RealityOne wrote:

Quote:
Anyone who believes the performance of a card trick is evidence of supernatural powers deserves to be left in their state of ignorance. As they say, ignorance is bliss.


Did I really miss your point? Is that a statement about how card magic is presented? It sure reads like a comment on people who are fooled.


My emphasis was that most, if not nearly all, performances of card tricks couldn't create belief because of the trivial nature of a card trick. The rest of the statement was tongue in cheek and sarcastic -- essentially indicating that anyone who thinks a magician has god-like powers because he was repeatedly able to make the 4 of Hearts rise to the top of a deck would have to lack a significant portion of their cerebral capacities.

Quote:
On Dec 24, 2017, lynnef wrote:
Ignorance is not always blissful, even though it was considered a sin to eat from the Tree of knowledge (actually it was knowledge of good and evil...imagine not knowing the difference!). People can learn to divest themselves of supernatural beliefs, and yet 'suspend belief' in watching a magic show or even just watching a movie. Good grief, I don't believe in religion, but I do still believe in Santa Claus, and really strong card tricks! Merry Xmas to all! Lynn


Now, a card trick demonstrating the learning the difference between good and evil, that might be worthy of Robert Neale and reach the level of non-trivial. I still think that nobody will assume you have supernatural powers, but there is a good chance you will be entertaining and thought provoking.

Quote:
On Dec 24, 2017, Dandin wrote:
The magic can be real without pretending that it is real. Just tell them that is real as movies and theatre plays are real.


I love the movie analogy. There is a great section in Richard Bach's book Illusions about the reality of movies. Movies are an illusion right down to being a series of frames of photographs giving the illusion of movement.
~David

Any perception of reality is a selection of reality which results in a distortion of reality.
Jonathan Townsend
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We live among those who confuse actors with their onscreen roles.

Play nice with your audiences. You'll get better feedback.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Magic breaks the laws of physics; Mentalism breaks ideas.
Which is scarier?
.


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Quote:
On Dec 27, 2017, RealityOne wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 24, 2017, MeetMagicMike wrote:

We both seem to agree that card magic can be presented as real magic or not. Many performers have as there goal to convince people that magic is real and this CAN be accomplished with cards (because not all card tricks are trivial).


I would classify the use of Zener cards as mentalism and the use of Tarot cards as more esoteric magic, neither of those are typical card magic. I don't think that anyone can convince a spectator that they have real magical powers based on a pick-a-card trick, an ambitious card routine, ace assembly or even a matrix. I would suggest that anyone who thinks otherwise is either an amazing performer or is deluding themselves. Playing cards are inherently trivial (as opposed to Zener cards which have a backstory that relates to psychic phenomena and Tarot which are inherently esoteric). Most performances consist of what Eugene Burger called narration of the adventures of the props in the performer's hands.

I'm not saying you can't convey enjoyment, astonishment, illusion or even meaning through a card trick, I'm just saying it is intrinsically trivial.

Quote:
On Dec 24, 2017, MeetMagicMike wrote:

RealityOne wrote:

Quote:
Anyone who believes the performance of a card trick is evidence of supernatural powers deserves to be left in their state of ignorance. As they say, ignorance is bliss.


Did I really miss your point? Is that a statement about how card magic is presented? It sure reads like a comment on people who are fooled.


My emphasis was that most, if not nearly all, performances of card tricks couldn't create belief because of the trivial nature of a card trick. The rest of the statement was tongue in cheek and sarcastic -- essentially indicating that anyone who thinks a magician has god-like powers because he was repeatedly able to make the 4 of Hearts rise to the top of a deck would have to lack a significant portion of their cerebral capacities.

Quote:
On Dec 24, 2017, lynnef wrote:
Ignorance is not always blissful, even though it was considered a sin to eat from the Tree of knowledge (actually it was knowledge of good and evil...imagine not knowing the difference!). People can learn to divest themselves of supernatural beliefs, and yet 'suspend belief' in watching a magic show or even just watching a movie. Good grief, I don't believe in religion, but I do still believe in Santa Claus, and really strong card tricks! Merry Xmas to all! Lynn


Now, a card trick demonstrating the learning the difference between good and evil, that might be worthy of Robert Neale and reach the level of non-trivial. I still think that nobody will assume you have supernatural powers, but there is a good chance you will be entertaining and thought provoking.

Quote:
On Dec 24, 2017, Dandin wrote:
The magic can be real without pretending that it is real. Just tell them that is real as movies and theatre plays are real.


I love the movie analogy. There is a great section in Richard Bach's book Illusions about the reality of movies. Movies are an illusion right down to being a series of frames of photographs giving the illusion of movement.

Eugene Burger was one who did not share your "card tricks are trivial" theory. The result was pure, meaningful, powerful magic.
Terrible Wizard
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While I agree that cards have a certain 'baggage' attached to them (they are mostly associated with magic tricks, I think, from Joshua Jay's research), this is very suceptible to environmental and performer context, and needn't be trivial.

For example, cards are readily associated with gambling and that is not trivial (judging by casino takings, lol). In the right context they can also be fairly easily connected to fortune telling, again a non-trivial association.

I guess it all depends upon what you do with them, when and where, and to whom. The same likely goes for many props. Some props probably have an easier time being taken seriously, maybe like tarot cards or pendulums, others have a much harder time, like spongeballs. Maybe playing cards fall somewhere in the middle of that spectrum???
RealityOne
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Quote:
On Dec 27, 2017, magicfish wrote:

Eugene Burger was one who did not share your "card tricks are trivial" theory. The result was pure, meaningful, powerful magic.


I think Eugene shared my thoughts on triviality of most magician's presentation of card tricks (as well as other magic):

Quote:
We have been conditioned to treat our conjuring as if it needed a background of so-called jokes, as if conjuring itself is trivial. insignificant, silly, not important, all of it.

Burger and Neale, Magic and Meaning Expanded, p. 2


Quote:
This ;leads to the third problem with literal demonstrations, namely that they tend to trivialize our our magical performances. Typically, they have no emotional content. Being centered, as they are, around the props and the hands, they do not touch important issues of life.

Burger and Neale, Magic and Meaning Expanded, p.139.


And yes, although card tricks (and most magic) is INHERENTLY trivial, meaning can be imbued in any magic through a meaningful presentation. Such presentations are the exception and literal demonstrations, where the presentation is the narration of the adventures of the props, are the norm. Even in meaningful presentations from Eugene Burger and Robert E. Neale there is little possibility of deification due to the analogical or allegorical nature of the presentations. If I were to attempt to instill true belief in a spectator, I wouldn't use playing cards, sponge balls, linking rings or anything that looks like I bought it at a magic shop... not that I'd ever do that for fear of being burnt at the stake.
~David

Any perception of reality is a selection of reality which results in a distortion of reality.
magicfish
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I disagree. So did Eugene. They are not inherently trivial.
Poor presentations, bad jokes, bad technique, poor preparation etc., have rendered them trivial over time.
They are inherently powerful and meaningful.
Eugene worked hard to restore that meaning and magic.
RealityOne
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Quote:
On Dec 28, 2017, magicfish wrote:
I disagree. So did Eugene. They are not inherently trivial.
Poor presentations, bad jokes, bad technique, poor preparation etc., have rendered them trivial over time.
They are inherently powerful and meaningful.
Eugene worked hard to restore that meaning and magic.


I think we agree more than we disagree. I'm saying that in the absence of any meaningful presentation card tricks characteristically are trivial. You are saying that card tricks are not essentially trivial because they can be presented with meaning. We both agree that most magicians' performances render any magic with cards (as well as other objects) trivial. We both seemingly agree with Eugene's approach to providing meaning to all performances of magic.
~David

Any perception of reality is a selection of reality which results in a distortion of reality.
magicfish
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Agreed sir. Smile
landmark
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"...an actor playing the part of a magician..."

If they conclude it's magic, then no magic happened.
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet"--Abraham Lincoln

You can read my daily blog at Musings, Memories, and Magic
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