The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » G. w. hunter false shuffle - trouble running cards (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
Bob G
View Profile
Elite user
418 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Hi folks,


I want to learn a full-deck false shuffle in order to disguise self-working tricks that have small set-ups (e. g., the sort of thing in Fulves' Self-Working books). If the set-up is near the top of the deck, the lift shuffle works fine for me. And I know there are ways to retain the top and bottom stocks simultaneously, but I thought it would be fun to learn a full-deck false shuffle. Although there are other alternatives mentioned in other threads (e. g., various optical false shuffles), right now I'm concentrating on the Hunter shuffle. Here's my problem: I find it very difficult to run single cards, especially at speed.


But even in slow motion, I find that I can run four cards or so consecutively, but after that it all falls apart and I'm moving two or more cards per chop.


For the shuffle to leave the deck intact, I obviously can't have that. And for the shuffle to be deceptive, I need to be able to run the cards quickly, not just accurately.


Sorry to belabor the point, but writing the above helped *me* to articulate the problem! I haven't seen this addressed in Giobbi's Card College or Montier's False Shuffle Project -- and although I suspect that some threads on the Café address it, I haven't been able to find them.


Is this just a matter of practice, or can anyone offer tips? And if you find some other shuffle easier, even one that retains only the top and bottom stocks simultaneously, I'd love to hear about it or be referred to the appropriate thread.


Thanks,


Bob
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
4494 Posts

Profile of landmark
One thing that a lot of the books never mention is that an important aspect of card handling is the relative dryness/oiliness of your hands. It sounds likes you may have dry hands. One thing you can try is to take one--only one--drop of glycerine and rub it into your hands and then wipe off your hands. See if that helps at all.
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet"--Abraham Lincoln

You can read my daily blog at Musings, Memories, and Magic
Bob G
View Profile
Elite user
418 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Thanks, landmark (and nice to hear from you again). I'll try that. I do have dry hands, especially in the winter. Is glycerine something one can buy in a pharmacy? I do use Eucerin (a hand cream) when I think of it; I'm curious now whether glycerin is one ingredient.


P. S.: I never knew Lincoln said that. You learn a new thing every day...
RiderBacks
View Profile
Loyal user
245 Posts

Profile of RiderBacks
Another thing to keep in mind is the state of the deck you're working with. If the cards are sticking together too much, you're fighting an uphill battle (though one which can be won) when trying to run. Basically, you're going to have to adjust your technique to the condition of the deck. And that just comes with lots of practice with lots of decks in different conditions. If you don't have at least twenty-five decks lying around, in varying states of disrepair, you aren't practicing enough.

Of course, you also don't generally want to have a brand new deck either. While that might help with your runs, it certainly won't help with your DL. The sweet spot is pretty much a deck that has been slightly broken in. Some folks even have a deck breaking-in routine. That's smart if you're using your own decks in performances (like most sane people).
kShepher
View Profile
Regular user
Washington, DC
130 Posts

Profile of kShepher
Bob,

I started a topic titled Hand Moisturizer that goes all into this. Is about 40 posts down.

Kevin
Claudio
View Profile
Inner circle
Europe
1239 Posts

Profile of Claudio
Bob,

You already have received some good advice, but I'd like to make the point that there's no need to run the cards quickly for this shuffle to be deceptive, as long as the runs don't look studied.

The second point is that there's no necessity to run 5 or more cards. If you feel more comfortable with 3 or 4, that's fine too. The deceptiveness is hardly diminished with a shorter run.

Here's a demo by Steinar Thelen. The shuffle is performed at a measure pace. It's very natural and deceptive.

Scroll down the page until you hit the video.

http://conjuror.community/false-shuffles-card-trick/
Bob G
View Profile
Elite user
418 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Thanks, everybody; I really appreciate your help. I want to respond to people's ideas, and I'll do that one person at a time since things are pretty busy here.


First up, RiderBacks: I have decks all over the house! Most of them are on the old side, so I guess I'm going to have to open some new decks. I do have one that's quite new, and I found that my DL, which recently was becoming consistent, became kind of a mess when I used the new deck. So I was heartened to hear your words about the DL and new decks. I'll keep practicing with a variety of decks, and watch for that sweet spot.
Bob G
View Profile
Elite user
418 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Thanks, Kevin, for starting and referring me to the "Hand Moisturizer" thread. Whew, it's overwhelming, isn't it. I'll try out some of the possibilities and see what works best for me.




Claudio, I've seen the Thelan video, but I need to look again. When I first saw it I was unclear about the difference between it and the Hunter method.



I was surprised -- really surprised -- to hear your comment that speed isn't important in running the cards. Not that I don't believe you! -- but I would have thought that if the pace is slow then spectators would notice things like, "This time he chopped half the deck and then chopped individual cards, whereas last time he just chopped seven or so even packets. But I suppose laypeople aren't looking for things like that, and even if they noticed, it wouldn'lt mean much to them. And of course the magician is talking while he's shuffling, and not looking at his hands, so that provides misdirection. Anyway, what you said is good news for me, because running cards quickly isn't working for me. The hand cream I use, Eucerin, helps for about five minutes, so I guess I'm back to looking for a good cream to use.


Bob
kShepher
View Profile
Regular user
Washington, DC
130 Posts

Profile of kShepher
Bob,

I settled on O'Keefe's Working Hands as a general moisturizer, and a a small tin of SortKwik as needed during performance (I don't "perform", but do tricks for people when I can). SortKwik is almost strapped to the deck, I find it that important. Winter SU..S!

Kevin
kShepher
View Profile
Regular user
Washington, DC
130 Posts

Profile of kShepher
Bob,

BTW....how's your Halo Cut going?

You have to have it mastered by now.

I stand by my 45 degree angle theory. It always works.
Bob G
View Profile
Elite user
418 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Hi Kevin,


Well... thanks for asking, though that question hurts a bit!. I still don't feel that I'm getting it. Until recently I was taking a break from practicing it, but for some reason, a few days ago, I decided to look at HL's DVD again. There are moments when I seem to have it and then, a few tries later, I don't anymore.


I don't remember your 45 angle theory, so I'll go back and look at what you said on the Halo Cut theory thread. I actually think that part of the problem is dry hands!


Bob
Bob G
View Profile
Elite user
418 Posts

Profile of Bob G
P. S.: I predict that, once I'm a bit more advanced, I'll do what you do: do tricks for people when the opportunity arises. I don't have any desire to perform for large groups. But when I'm retired I may try out performing in pedriatic wards, hospices, on a one-to-one sort of basis.
kShepher
View Profile
Regular user
Washington, DC
130 Posts

Profile of kShepher
Dry hands will destroy it. As I said....winter su..ks.
kShepher
View Profile
Regular user
Washington, DC
130 Posts

Profile of kShepher
Bob...listen.

The idea is to grab the top packet alone...do NOT pinch the bottom card. Do NOT get your whole palm involved. Bring the left hand up at a 45..or close..degree angle. That ensures that only the ball of your index finger contacts the bottom of the deck.

When the whole palm is involved it all falls apart.

Hope that helps.

Kevin
Bob G
View Profile
Elite user
418 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Thanks, Kevin! I can feel you trying to reach through the screen and guide my hand -- wish you could.


So here's a question. When you're you've got the ball of your index finger in contact with the bottom, do you intentionally move the bottom card to the left, or does it somehow just happen automatically. Because I've only been able to get the card to move by pressing upward on the bottom card and guiding it to the left, and that feels very awkward. I just tried a few times now, after reading what you wrote, and it still felt that way. (Granted, I was using an old, non-very-slippery deck, and my hands are dry.) Oh! -- I just reread and you said don't pinch the bottom, so I guess no pressure.


I'll experiment with this some more and let you know what happens.


Winter! -- Ah, there's a whole interesting topic. I've retained my childhood delight with it, but I have to agree that in many ways it does just what you say.


Bob
kShepher
View Profile
Regular user
Washington, DC
130 Posts

Profile of kShepher
Bob....you are overthinking things. You have my affliction..but worse.

Analytical.

Magic is ART.

Flow.

Listen to the DEAD.

Really.
Bob G
View Profile
Elite user
418 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Hmmm... Well, I am a mathematician, after all.


Then again, I'm a published poet...


Analytical... *Is* that an affliction?


DEAD: The Grateful Dead? My long-dead father?


You're not the only one who's accused me of overthinking, but how does that actually help me learn?


Flow: that I like. A flowing stream, relaxation.
Bob G
View Profile
Elite user
418 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Kevin,


This may not have been intentional on your part, but it felt to me as though a switch had turned all of a sudden, and your sentence containing the word "affliction" came across as a personal attack. I *think* you were still trying to help me, but I'm not sure what of value I can draw from your words.


A thought about magic as an art. I'm no expert, but surely *every* art, whether it be painting, magic, or mathematics, is based firmly on craft. Do you imagine that Ansel Adams could have created his wonderful photographs if he hadn't first developed hundreds of negatives in all different kinds of conditions, meticulously recording his shutter speeds, depths of field, light meter readingsd? That's the craft. Without it, he couldn't have expressed his passion for light and for the wilderness of California. Similarly in magic, no? Good luck weaving a spell on our audience if we haven't learned our sleights with precision.


Bob
Claudio
View Profile
Inner circle
Europe
1239 Posts

Profile of Claudio
Quote:
On Jan 1, 2018, Bob G wrote:
Claudio, I've seen the Thelan video, but I need to look again. When I first saw it I was unclear about the difference between it and the Hunter method.

I was surprised -- really surprised -- to hear your comment that speed isn't important in running the cards. Not that I don't believe you! -- but I would have thought that if the pace is slow then spectators would notice things like, "This time he chopped half the deck and then chopped individual cards, whereas last time he just chopped seven or so even packets. But I suppose laypeople aren't looking for things like that, and even if they noticed, it wouldn'lt mean much to them. And of course the magician is talking while he's shuffling, and not looking at his hands, so that provides misdirection. Anyway, what you said is good news for me, because running cards quickly isn't working for me. The hand cream I use, Eucerin, helps for about five minutes, so I guess I'm back to looking for a good cream to use.

Bob

I am not sure of the original handling of the Hunter shuffle as it was first published in an English magazine that I don’t have: The Magazine of Magic, 1920.

I learnt the version from ECT:

Undercut half the deck, run 5 cards from the right hand packet onto the packet in the left hand, then drop the right hand packet onto the left, out-jogging it a quarter of an inch. Undercut at the out-jog, taking the lower half and again run five cards onto the left hand packet.

Giobbi describes a different handling where the 5th card is in-jogged (instead of the packet being out-jogged).

I re-read the hints/tips from the Giobbi description and he stresses that rhythm is paramount for deceptiveness. He also adds that running fewer than 5 cards is perfectly possible though he recommends 5.

So, I was trying to convey that speed is not the major factor but rhythm is to make this false shuffle as deceptive as possible. Obviously if you perform the shuffle in near slow motion Smile , it won’t do.

Try to perform the Hunter Shuffle at the same pace as your regular OH shuffles. Just make it work for you.

Bob, keep on being critical of the material (descriptions, advice) you receive, I reckon you’ll be a better performer for it Smile

Finally, my handling is a bit different nowadays: I run 5 cards and then drop the top packet straight onto the bottom (i.e. no in or out jogs). Because of friction, and if the drop angle is right, the bottom few cards from the top packet will up-jog. Then your LH thumb will press down and inwards while your RH undercuts the bottom half for the second run of the cards. I believe this is a Larry Jennings idea.
Bob G
View Profile
Elite user
418 Posts

Profile of Bob G
Thanks, Claudio, for this detailed description and the time you took to go back to the sources. You've given me a lot to try. I see what you mean about near slow motion -- that's the speed I'm at if I want to run cards accurately. But that will change with practice and hand cream!


Thanks also for your support in being critical -- all of us have to take what we read and hear, discard the advice that doesn't work for us, keep what does work, and think imaginatively in order to progress in our art, whatever that may be.



"Facing the card" keeps improving for me, by the way. I love magic!
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » G. w. hunter false shuffle - trouble running cards (0 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2018 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.26 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL