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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Trick coin trickery » » Piedrahita's signed coins across: worker? (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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The Unmasked Magician
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I'm looking to add a great coins across to my restaurant repertoire. I really like Luis' version, so I'm considering buying his book. Jamy Ian Swiss however expresses doubts in his review of the book if this is a worker or a more of a routine for just one performance in a televised show. Unfortunately he doesn't go into detail why. Any thoughts on this? And one more question: I understand Luis uses Lassen coins. Does anyone know how much a set of these would cost by estimation?
Thank you in advance for your help!
Here's the link to the performance. Check it out if you haven't seen it yet. His presentation is great. He used to be a stand-up comedian and you can tell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=dUav60npXc8
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tonsofquestions
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Re-reading that part of his Jamy's review, I don't interpret it as "doubting if it's a worker or suited for TV", and more emphasizing some of the requirements that went into the creation of the trick: it has to be *powerful* enough for TV, and hold an entire audience for 2 and a half minutes, which is usually pretty challenging for a close up effect. Which it does in spades. That doesn't mean it wouldn't work for a routine or close up.

I don't have the book, so I'm not certain on the method, but knowing Lassen's styles when it comes to gaffs, I have a pretty good guess about what's going on.
I believe it's workable (and actually not extremely difficult, technically), but requires a lot of confidence and audience management to pull off.

As far as the coins themselves go, buying from Lassen would cost a pretty penny - probably close to $400, and you wouldn't be able to get it immediately. It would also be only for one or two of the routines in his book - other routines would use other gaffs (that would cost more).
It would certainly be possible to buy this set elsewhere, possibly cheaper (depending on the coins you want) but it's likely the quality wouldn't be as high (depending on the source), and that might be tricky when letting the audience handle the coins.

I'd prefer not to say more for fear of revealing the routine (which I'm again not 100% certain of method), but hopefully it'l give you a bit of a sense.
The Unmasked Magician
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Thank you very much, tonsofquestions! That helps a lot!

I can see how you interpret Jamie's review that way. You might be right.

I also noticed Luis' boldness in letting the spectators handle the coins, which indeed would be risky considering the gaff he uses (I'm also not completely sure, but I also do think I know what he uses). That's why I thought: I need a quality gaff if I'm going to do this routine. So thanks for telling me how much that would cost me. One thing I did wonder is if people in an intimate restaurant setting wouldn't immediately ask to see the coins, especially with the way the third coin vanishes (two coins become one in plain sight). It reminds me a bit of Eric Jones in AGT where he had all the judges on stage and then to me also stretched the gimmick to where it seemed obvious how it worked when het let Heidi Klum throw the coins on the table and one coin vanished. However Luis does gives the routine a wonderful extra dimension with the signing of the coins, which does seem to prove there are only four of 'em. I would be dissappointed however, if "Can I inspect those coins?" would become the most heard reaction. I wonder if he deals with that issue in the book.

And thanks for pointing out that other routines in the book will require other gaffs. I would buy it just for two routines: the Coins Across and the Bubble Wrap routine. I love watching them. And now I have to decide if they are worth the considerable cost. For coins I now only use Quiver to show a bite coin, switch it for a normal coin and then perform Leap. So there's room for some more coin effects! Smile
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warren
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It's an amazing routine and the special something that he's using is something that you can let the spectators handle as it's the same concept as Eric Jones excellent routine but it also suffers from the same problem for me personally which is blatant use of the gaff as I prefer to use such things in a much more subtle manner.
The Unmasked Magician
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Exactly. It's very visual, but it also creates an immediate idea in the minds of many intelligent spectators as to how it's done. I also prefer a more subtle way, like using time misdirection by not showing the vanish at the moment it "happens" in full view.
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On Jan 21, 2018, The Unmasked Magician wrote:
Exactly. It's very visual, but it also creates an immediate idea in the minds of many intelligent spectators as to how it's done. I also prefer a more subtle way, like using time misdirection by not showing the vanish at the moment it "happens" in full view.


I agree completely I've said the same thing many times myself, there are plenty of people who disagree but hey if we all thought the same then the world would be a boring place.

If the hands were closed for just a second it would still look amazing, I usually prefer gaff free versions of coins across my go to usually being Sankeys Mr Clean Coins Across but when I decided to use a gaff I thought about it for quite a while before deciding which way to go and ultimately went with the more commonly used gaff and the reason is that when using the gaff as used in the video the last coin to go is the weakest when it should be the strongest ie you want a routine to build obviously using the kick back as in the video is a nice touch which solves the problem to a degree but let's be honest you can't beat the coins landing in the spectators hands can you.
tonsofquestions
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Yeah, Eric Jones' routine feels very similar, I agree. I was reluctant to mention it to give ideas away, but I agree that I think it's the same (well, a similar) method.

Quote:
On Jan 21, 2018, warren wrote:
It's an amazing routine and the special something that he's using is something that you can let the spectators handle as it's the same concept as Eric Jones excellent routine but it also suffers from the same problem for me personally which is blatant use of the gaff as I prefer to use such things in a much more subtle manner.


You and I must have very different definitions of "let the spectator handle it". I'd let a spec (freely) handle a m******c coin, but I wouldn't call "hold this by the edges, then let go really "handling". Touch but not look at (less than examine) might be more accurate. I'm still amazed that it goes by unnoticed during the signing.

Quote:
On Jan 21, 2018, The Unmasked Magician wrote:
However Luis does gives the routine a wonderful extra dimension with the signing of the coins, which does seem to prove there are only four of 'em. I would be dissappointed however, if "Can I inspect those coins?" would become the most heard reaction. I wonder if he deals with that issue in the book.


I suspect that's part of what the author meant by the needs influencing the routine - no one's going to push to examine the coins when it's on TV, and he has the ability to just run off screen and avoid it, which you can't in real life. As you say, signing it might make it less of an issue, but it's really hard to avoid and/or swap something else out. And clearly this routine isn't going to work for table hopping, since you have to remove the signatures each time.

Quote:
On Jan 21, 2018, The Unmasked Magician wrote:
And thanks for pointing out that other routines in the book will require other gaffs. I would buy it just for two routines: the Coins Across and the Bubble Wrap routine. I love watching them. And now I have to decide if they are worth the considerable cost. For coins I now only use Quiver to show a bite coin, switch it for a normal coin and then perform Leap. So there's room for some more coin effects! Smile


Well, that's an interesting data point. If that's your level of coin work, I'm not sure investing so much in a set makes sense. (No offense intended.) I was also suggesting a price for a set of dollar-sized silver coins, which might be more than you need/want. Again, you can get similar gaffs elsewhere, for less, but the close-up appearance while signing might not be quite as clean, which could cause trouble.

Only you can make that decision, though.
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[quote]On Jan 21, 2018, tonsofquestions wrote:
Yeah, Eric Jones' routine feels very similar, I agree. I was reluctant to mention it to give ideas away, but I agree that I think it's the same (well, a similar) method.

Quote:
On Jan 21, 2018, warren wrote:
It's an amazing routine and the special something that he's using is something that you can let the spectators handle as it's the same concept as Eric Jones excellent routine but it also suffers from the same problem for me personally which is blatant use of the gaff as I prefer to use such things in a much more subtle manner.


You and I must have very different definitions of "let the spectator handle it". I'd let a spec (freely) handle a m******c coin, but I wouldn't call "hold this by the edges, then let go really "handling". Touch but not look at (less than examine) might be more accurate. I'm still amazed that it goes by unnoticed during the signing.

Actually your completely wrong having actually spoken at length with Eric at a lecture about his routine he told me he gives the coins out to the spectators to examine before he starts the routine so there's a lot more than hold the coins by the edge the hold by the edge is just part of the actual routine.
The Unmasked Magician
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Well, that's an interesting data point. If that's your level of coin work, I'm not sure investing so much in a set makes sense. (No offense intended.) I was also suggesting a price for a set of dollar-sized silver coins, which might be more than you need/want. Again, you can get similar gaffs elsewhere, for less, but the close-up appearance while signing might not be quite as clean, which could cause trouble.

Only you can make that decision, though. [/quote]

Don't worry, that's not my level of coin work. I've done lots of coin routines over the years. I have a good CP, DP, BP, good lapping techniques, etc... I would say my level is intermediate. I just never found anything that I really liked, also because European currency is so small, making it kinda hard to see if you have more than six spectators. And because of that I never looked that hard. But seeing Luis got my enthusiasm going!
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tonsofquestions
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On Jan 22, 2018, warren wrote:
Actually your completely wrong having actually spoken at length with Eric at a lecture about his routine he told me he gives the coins out to the spectators to examine before he starts the routine so there's a lot more than hold the coins by the edge the hold by the edge is just part of the actual routine.


Interesting. He must use a locking dolphin, then. Otherwise there's no way he could hand it out. I don't think Lassen makes them too often, but I've never really looked as his stuff is largely out of my price range. I always figured he switched it in once the routine started.

Quote:
On Jan 22, 2018, The Unmasked Magician wrote:
Don't worry, that's not my level of coin work. I've done lots of coin routines over the years. I have a good CP, DP, BP, good lapping techniques, etc... I would say my level is intermediate. I just never found anything that I really liked, also because European currency is so small, making it kinda hard to see if you have more than six spectators. And because of that I never looked that hard. But seeing Luis got my enthusiasm going!


Glad to hear it. And a totally fair reason. You'll still likely have issues with the coins fitting in, but if you're on that side of the pond, you could also try Xavier Belmont, who I hear makes good coins, and could do stuff with larger silver coins from somewhere in Europe. Not that Lassen can't of course, I just think he does custom stuff less often these days.
The Unmasked Magician
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Glad to hear it. And a totally fair reason. You'll still likely have issues with the coins fitting in, but if you're on that side of the pond, you could also try Xavier Belmont, who I hear makes good coins, and could do stuff with larger silver coins from somewhere in Europe. Not that Lassen can't of course, I just think he does custom stuff less often these days.


Thanks for that name, I'm going to check him out!
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warren
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[quote]On Jan 22, 2018, tonsofquestions wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 22, 2018, warren wrote:
Actually your completely wrong having actually spoken at length with Eric at a lecture about his routine he told me he gives the coins out to the spectators to examine before he starts the routine so there's a lot more than hold the coins by the edge the hold by the edge is just part of the actual routine.


Interesting. He must use a locking dolphin, then. Otherwise there's no way he could hand it out. I don't think Lassen makes them too often, but I've never really looked as his stuff is largely out of my price range. I always figured he switched it in once the routine started.

Whilst Luis is using Lassen's coins Eric uses Schoolcraft's coins and he actually hands out a gravity to be examined, he basically said he's handed the coins out literally hundreds of times and nobody has ever spotted how it works as there is a certain way the coin has to be held in order to release it and with the way a spectator holds coins it's just not going to be opened then couple that with the fact they only look at the coins briefly he assumes he won't ever be caight and so far he's been correct.

regards price Lassen isn't as expensive as you think when you compare his prices to Schoolcraft's I've had two different coin sets made by Todd now and been really happy with his work and prices so you might be surprised.
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On Jan 22, 2018, tonsofquestions wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 22, 2018, warren wrote:
Actually your completely wrong having actually spoken at length with Eric at a lecture about his routine he told me he gives the coins out to the spectators to examine before he starts the routine so there's a lot more than hold the coins by the edge the hold by the edge is just part of the actual routine.


Interesting. He must use a locking dolphin, then. Otherwise there's no way he could hand it out. I don't think Lassen makes them too often, but I've never really looked as his stuff is largely out of my price range. I always figured he switched it in once the routine started.

Quote:
On Jan 22, 2018, The Unmasked Magician wrote:
Don't worry, that's not my level of coin work. I've done lots of coin routines over the years. I have a good CP, DP, BP, good lapping techniques, etc... I would say my level is intermediate. I just never found anything that I really liked, also because European currency is so small, making it kinda hard to see if you have more than six spectators. And because of that I never looked that hard. But seeing Luis got my enthusiasm going!


Glad to hear it. And a totally fair reason. You'll still likely have issues with the coins fitting in, but if you're on that side of the pond, you could also try Xavier Belmont, who I hear makes good coins, and could do stuff with larger silver coins from somewhere in Europe. Not that Lassen can't of course, I just think he does custom stuff less often these days.


I would posit that "...he gives the coins out to the spectators to examine before he starts the routine..." does not necessarily mean one or more of the coins spectators examined are not switched out for a gaff (or a gaff added) once the routine begins.

I mean, that's standard practice when using gaffs, no? Let spectator examine ungaffed coins, take them back, switch in or add a gaff, start routine. If I recall correctly, I believe Jones even discusses this in Metal 3.
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On Jan 22, 2018, mrjinglesusa wrote:


I would posit that "...he gives the coins out to the spectators to examine before he starts the routine..." does not necessarily mean one or more of the coins spectators examined are not switched out for a gaff (or a gaff added) once the routine begins.

I mean, that's standard practice when using gaffs, no? Let spectator examine ungaffed coins, take them back, switch in or add a gaff, start routine. If I recall correctly, I believe Jones even discusses this in Metal 3.


If you read my earlier post you'll have read that I actually spoke to Eric at length about that routine in person and he did in fact tell me he hands the dolphin out to be examined by the spectators at the beginning of the routine .....and I heard that from the man himself so it's a fact.
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On Jan 22, 2018, warren wrote:
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On Jan 22, 2018, mrjinglesusa wrote:


I would posit that "...he gives the coins out to the spectators to examine before he starts the routine..." does not necessarily mean one or more of the coins spectators examined are not switched out for a gaff (or a gaff added) once the routine begins.

I mean, that's standard practice when using gaffs, no? Let spectator examine ungaffed coins, take them back, switch in or add a gaff, start routine. If I recall correctly, I believe Jones even discusses this in Metal 3.


If you read my earlier post you'll have read that I actually spoke to Eric at length about that routine in person and he did in fact tell me he hands the dolphin out to be examined by the spectators at the beginning of the routine .....and I heard that from the man himself so it's a fact.


I don't mean to be argumentative, but I quoted your original post so I'm aware of what you said. You did not say, in the original post, that Eric told you "he hands the dolphin out to be examined and nothing is switched in or out". You said "...he gives the coins out to the spectators to examine before he starts the routine...". So, the routine starts AFTER the spectators examine the coins he gives them to examine. Part of the routine COULD BE switching in a gaff.

My point was that there is nothing in what you originally said, which is what I responded to, that confirms that Eric does not switch anything in/out after the spectators examine what he gives them to examine.

I guess my point is that if I did a coin routine that used a gaff and I let spectators examine "the coins" before I start the routine and I switch in the gaff after examination, if I'm describing the effect I would say I "give the coins out to the spectators to examine before I start the routine", which is a true but an incomplete description, because it omits what happens AFTER the spectators examine the coins I gave them.

To be clear, I'm not saying Eric doesn't hand out the dolphin to be examined, I'm just saying that what you said he told you doesn't confirm that aspect.
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On Jan 22, 2018, mrjinglesusa wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 22, 2018, warren wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 22, 2018, mrjinglesusa wrote:


I would posit that "...he gives the coins out to the spectators to examine before he starts the routine..." does not necessarily mean one or more of the coins spectators examined are not switched out for a gaff (or a gaff added) once the routine begins.

I mean, that's standard practice when using gaffs, no? Let spectator examine ungaffed coins, take them back, switch in or add a gaff, start routine. If I recall correctly, I believe Jones even discusses this in Metal 3.


If you read my earlier post you'll have read that I actually spoke to Eric at length about that routine in person and he did in fact tell me he hands the dolphin out to be examined by the spectators at the beginning of the routine .....and I heard that from the man himself so it's a fact.


I don't mean to be argumentative, but I quoted your original post so I'm aware of what you said. You did not say, in the original post, that Eric told you "he hands the dolphin out to be examined and nothing is switched in or out". You said "...he gives the coins out to the spectators to examine before he starts the routine...". So, the routine starts AFTER the spectators examine the coins he gives them to examine. Part of the routine COULD BE switching in a gaff.

My point was that there is nothing in what you originally said, which is what I responded to, that confirms that Eric does not switch anything in/out after the spectators examine what he gives them to examine.

I guess my point is that if I did a coin routine that used a gaff and I let spectators examine "the coins" before I start the routine and I switch in the gaff after examination, if I'm describing the effect I would say I "give the coins out to the spectators to examine before I start the routine", which is a true but an incomplete description, because it omits what happens AFTER the spectators examine the coins I gave them.

To be clear, I'm not saying Eric doesn't hand out the dolphin to be examined, I'm just saying that what you said he told you doesn't confirm that aspect.



Your really confusing me especially your last sentence as it makes no sense " I'm not saying Eric doesn't hand out the dolphin to be examined, I'm just saying that what you said he told you doesn't confirm that aspect ", I actually saw Eric live and spoke to him and he told me that he actually gives the dolphin to the spectators to examine and they haven't found anything because you have to hold the coin in a certain way to operate it, I can't imagine Eric would be telling me a Lie, If you look on youtube you can even see Eric perform the routine at a pool table and you see him hand out the coins at the beginning of the routine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF8_Hw_C3Iw

I have also seen Craig Petty do the same thing ie hand out a dolphin to be examined before performing with it, I'm not saying that I would or wouldn't personally as I don't use that particular gimmick for the reasons I mentioned earlier, at the end you choose what you want to believe as its irrelevant to me one way or the other.
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On Jan 22, 2018, warren wrote:
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On Jan 22, 2018, mrjinglesusa wrote:
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On Jan 22, 2018, warren wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 22, 2018, mrjinglesusa wrote:


I would posit that "...he gives the coins out to the spectators to examine before he starts the routine..." does not necessarily mean one or more of the coins spectators examined are not switched out for a gaff (or a gaff added) once the routine begins.

I mean, that's standard practice when using gaffs, no? Let spectator examine ungaffed coins, take them back, switch in or add a gaff, start routine. If I recall correctly, I believe Jones even discusses this in Metal 3.


If you read my earlier post you'll have read that I actually spoke to Eric at length about that routine in person and he did in fact tell me he hands the dolphin out to be examined by the spectators at the beginning of the routine .....and I heard that from the man himself so it's a fact.


I don't mean to be argumentative, but I quoted your original post so I'm aware of what you said. You did not say, in the original post, that Eric told you "he hands the dolphin out to be examined and nothing is switched in or out". You said "...he gives the coins out to the spectators to examine before he starts the routine...". So, the routine starts AFTER the spectators examine the coins he gives them to examine. Part of the routine COULD BE switching in a gaff.

My point was that there is nothing in what you originally said, which is what I responded to, that confirms that Eric does not switch anything in/out after the spectators examine what he gives them to examine.

I guess my point is that if I did a coin routine that used a gaff and I let spectators examine "the coins" before I start the routine and I switch in the gaff after examination, if I'm describing the effect I would say I "give the coins out to the spectators to examine before I start the routine", which is a true but an incomplete description, because it omits what happens AFTER the spectators examine the coins I gave them.

To be clear, I'm not saying Eric doesn't hand out the dolphin to be examined, I'm just saying that what you said he told you doesn't confirm that aspect.



Your really confusing me especially your last sentence as it makes no sense " I'm not saying Eric doesn't hand out the dolphin to be examined, I'm just saying that what you said he told you doesn't confirm that aspect ", I actually saw Eric live and spoke to him and he told me that he actually gives the dolphin to the spectators to examine and they haven't found anything because you have to hold the coin in a certain way to operate it, I can't imagine Eric would be telling me a Lie, If you look on youtube you can even see Eric perform the routine at a pool table and you see him hand out the coins at the beginning of the routine.

I have also seen Craig Petty do the same thing ie hand out a dolphin to be examined before performing with it, I'm not saying that I would or wouldn't personally as I don't use that particular gimmick for the reasons I mentioned earlier, at the end you choose what you want to believe as its irrelevant to me one way or the other.


I don't see what's confusing or doesn't make sense.

You did NOT say in your original post that I originally responded to that he told you "...he actually gives the dolphin to the spectators to examine and they haven't found anything because you have to hold the coin in a certain way to operate it" [Which is what you are now saying he told you in subsequent posts AFTER I responded to your original post]

ORIGINALLY, you ONLY said he told you "...he gives the coins out to the spectators to examine before he starts the routine...", which is what I responded to - it's ambiguous whether the gaff is examined.

If you had said he told you what you are now saying he told you originally, I never would have responded in the first place because it would have been clear he lets them examine the gaffed coin.

That was the only thing I was questioning - whether he let them examine the gaffed coin or whether he might have switched it in AFTER they examined a normal coin.

My ONLY point is that there is a difference between what you ORIGINALLY said he told you [which is ambiguous whether a gaff was allowed to be examined] and what you later said he told you [which is perfectly clear - he does let them examine the gaff].

You've now clarified more specifically what he said, so I'm done with this back and forth.
warren
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Phew thank god for that as it was getting very boring as I didn't think I needed to go into every tiny detail of a conversation haha
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On Jan 22, 2018, warren wrote:
Phew thank god for that as it was getting very boring as I didn't think I needed to go into every tiny detail of a conversation haha


Warren - I apologize if in my newness and naiveté I came across as questioning your recollection of your conversation. That was not my intent at all. It just wasn't clear to me whether Jones allowed examination of the gaffed coin, which it is now. Part of this confusion is because in Metal 3, he does talk about allowing examination of coins and switching in a gaff.

Part of my confusion is also because I don't know what a "dolphin" coin is. LOL Obviously, people who know understood what you originally posted perfectly well.

Again, my apologies for any derailment of this thread.

Carry on. : )
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On Jan 22, 2018, mrjinglesusa wrote:
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On Jan 22, 2018, warren wrote:
Phew thank god for that as it was getting very boring as I didn't think I needed to go into every tiny detail of a conversation haha


Warren - I apologize if in my newness and naiveté I came across as questioning your recollection of your conversation. That was not my intent at all. It just wasn't clear to me whether Jones allowed examination of the gaffed coin, which it is now. Part of this confusion is because in Metal 3, he does talk about allowing examination of coins and switching in a gaff.

Part of my confusion is also because I don't know what a "dolphin" coin is. LOL Obviously, people who know understood what you originally posted perfectly well.

Again, my apologies for any derailment of this thread.

Carry on. : )


No worries my friend no harm done and welcome to the Café Smile
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