We Remember The Magic Café We Remember
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » 4 walling theatre nightmare? (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
8800 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
Yes, if you want to do business with them. If they are unfamiliar with such type of deals or arrangements how you present and educate them to such an arrangement can be the difference between a profitable deal or no deal at all. They will likely check with other theaters they work with or, as I said their associations, and using the proper terms will allow them to find more easily what they are seeking and know you know what you are talking about.

Personally, I love these small or private venues where they aren't aware of this as I can educate them and open their eyes to a world of new opportunity and profitability. For many, especially smaller type theaters (that are typically struggling), this can be a game changer. An entire different secondary business model.

Same for anything in business or industry-related operations. Do you want to demonstrate knowledge and experience or be a seen as a putz with some crazy idea?

Also, if I am not mistaken the proper agreement can make a difference in insurance coverage and payouts as well.

There are many reasons that this can make a difference more than just terminology. Also if you ever get sued, it can and will make a world of differnce. It is far more than just a terminology thing.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
19045 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Showing them profitability that they can then use on a year long ongoing basis is FANTASTIC.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
lou serrano
View Profile
Special user
Los Angeles, CA
661 Posts

Profile of lou serrano
Mindpro,

The point I was getting at is that you specifically said this was NOT a 4-wall deal and we should be careful as to who we listen to. From my understanding, this was a 4-wall deal. Renting the space between the 4-walls. The name of the agreement doesn’t really matter. It’s the details of the agreement that matter. It’s the same as when someone hires me to perform at an event. Most of the time we use my Performance Agreement, other times we use the client’s contract. It doesn’t matter to me who’s contract we sign or what it’s called. The only thing that matters to me are the details of the agreement.

Respectfully,

Lou Serrano
thomasR
View Profile
Special user
555 Posts

Profile of thomasR
Quote:
On Jan 28, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Most times I've heard the term 4 wall it refers to more of a residency than one night. Is this sort of what you mean?

Most theaters either hire or have 1 or however many night rental agreements.


That's always been my thought. When I think of a "4-wall / 2 -wall" I think of Steve Cohen in nyc, or a Branson / Pigeon Forge deal. But I've never worked a show like that, it's always been touring shows that stop for 1 weekend at the most.
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
8800 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
This is a problem I have with many entertainers - they all operate only from their own "me-position". Today is a different world in entertainment. You have to show people how to use our entertainment and what we offer. They will not realize these possibilities on their own. They will only see you in one dimension. As performer today the art and science of entertainment business has changed and is different from conventional business. We must educate and show people how to use, utilize and benefit from our services in ways they would never realize on their own.

Anyone not doing this these days will fail or only have minimal success. Everything else is short-sidedness and leaving money on the table. It is also what drives many away from performing which is great for those that remain.

Venues are the same way. They parallel performers in many ways. What used to work no longer does as effectively, if it is at all only minimally. They are struggling, many of them. They don't have the answers. I have made thousands and thousands of dollars based on this knowledge and understanding. Wasn't it Carnegie that said by helping others achieve what they want will allow you to achieve what you want? This couldn't be more true than in live entertainment these days in the current marketplace.

The guy that wants to just place an ad in a publication or do a media interview saying how great he is will be sitting at home broke. The person that understand this greater picture on a business executional level will succeed. Once he (or she) understands this, they can help others to succeed. Also in their eyes, you become the hero. That's what I call great positioning.

I regularly hear from my clients and students asking how I have over 15 longtime accounts that I have served consistently for over 25 years. How my Spring tour has been going on 30 years straight now, how my Summer production season is in it's 29th continuous year of sell-out or full-house productions. This is the answer. It is about soooo much more than just you and your performance. It is about business. This creates success, this fills your schedule, this makes you in a different world than any possible competition, this what builds your business, retirement, and lifestyle.

Yet so many performers, will not open their eyes to realize this. This is what you should be seeing and investing in, not the latest whiz-bang trick, effect or marketing programs.
lou serrano
View Profile
Special user
Los Angeles, CA
661 Posts

Profile of lou serrano
Mindpro,

I agree with you 100%. I just don’t see how this is an issue in this thread.

Lou Serrano
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
8800 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
Quote:
On Jan 28, 2018, lou serrano wrote:
Mindpro,

The point I was getting at is that you specifically said this was NOT a 4-wall deal and we should be careful as to who we listen to. From my understanding, this was a 4-wall deal. Renting the space between the 4-walls. The name of the agreement doesn’t really matter. It’s the details of the agreement that matter. It’s the same as when someone hires me to perform at an event. Most of the time we use my Performance Agreement, other times we use the client’s contract. It doesn’t matter to me who’s contract we sign or what it’s called. The only thing that matters to me are the details of the agreement.

Respectfully,

Lou Serrano


Sorry you aren't getting it Lou. Yes, it is the details of the arrangement that matter with the proper type of agreement. What is provided in a regular rental agreement is different from what is in a 4 wall agreement. This is the point, not what it's called, but knowing the proper terminology is important when dealing with those that do know and understand this or trying to educate those that don't.

Even in a 4 wall deal, it is much more than just renting the 4 walls. It is a term often used but of course, there is much more to it than that. Do you think in a 2 wall deal it is just about renting 2 walls? Come on!

Yes, while the details of the agreement matter so des the proper agreement. They are designed to cover and include two different things as I have pointed out now for two pages.

You said "From my understanding, this was a 4-wall deal. Renting the space between the 4-walls." Yes, and I am telling you there is much more to it than your over-simplified magic-circles understanding.That's all/ Then I tried to offer many points that differ, many not even included in a regular rental agreement and if they were would negate half of its contents, which cause most and legal department to never agree to it.

Seems you are getting hung up on the wrong aspects here.

Adding the elements that you want to am improper agreement designed for something else will not make it a proper agreement, and most likely not be acceptable to the venue.
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
8800 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
It's an issue in this thread because as I originally stated it sounded like what we signed was a regular rental agreement not designed for what he was doing and wishing to accomplish (which as the title of this thread he referred to as a 4 wall). So since they didn't truly understand the type of agreement needed and what he was proposing, they tried to fit his interests (square peg) into their (round hole) current rental agreement greatly restricting his interest and needs.
Lucasw
View Profile
Regular user
Canada
193 Posts

Profile of Lucasw
For the record, I never approached the theatre with this vocabulary. I offered them the opportunity to buy out my show, or to "partner" with them and share profits. They said no thank you to both (and continue too) and offered me the option to rent. I put 4 wall in this thread because simply put, I believed I was doing that on a much smaller scale and thought that would resonate more with this crowd. Didn't mean to cause a huge debate, but there was lots of valuable information shared here. I now have a much deeper understanding of 4 wall vs rental.

Still would love to hear feedback on your "Rental" nightmares. Can you outdo me when it comes to restrictions?
lou serrano
View Profile
Special user
Los Angeles, CA
661 Posts

Profile of lou serrano
Mindpro,

I understand completely. I never said that a 4-wall deal is ONLY renting the space between 4-walls. Just as hiring me for a gig is not only paying me to perform. All the specific details are in the agreement, whether your performing at a gig or 4-walling a show. In the end, you either agree to the deal or you don’t.

Lou Serrano
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
8800 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
Quote:
On Jan 28, 2018, Lucasw wrote:
For the record, I never approached the theatre with this vocabulary. I offered them the opportunity to buy out my show, or to "partner" with them and share profits. They said no thank you to both (and continue too) and offered me the option to rent. I put 4 wall in this thread because simply put, I believed I was doing that on a much smaller scale and thought that would resonate more with this crowd. Didn't mean to cause a huge debate, but there was lots of valuable information shared here. I now have a much deeper understanding of 4 wall vs rental.

Still would love to hear feedback on your "Rental" nightmares. Can you outdo me when it comes to restrictions?


No, I can't say that I have meant these strict restrictions or that if I had that I would have accepted them. Upon hearing this, or perhaps before when you gave them the two options of "to buy out my show, or to "partner" with them and share profits" I would have used a third approach (don't aks here). I would have never said, "partner with them to share the profits".

I think the way we initially present ourselves and our interests to them can make one of the deciding factors. I once had a student of mine that had a theater in his town that he and two other performers approached to do this type of a deal. They shut them all down immediately. He asked what he did wrong or that could have been done differently or better. I mentioned this whole initial approach issue and my recommendations. They asked if I would contact them to see if they would respond to me differently. I said I would if the two of them would assist me on my production team if I were to do it. They agreed. I got the deal I proposed on the first meeting. What was funny was in the meeting which I recorded, they said they'd love to do such a thing and that they have never been approached with such an arrangement. Yet all three of the guys felt they had done the same exact thing. That is not how the venue viewed it. So structure and approach matters.

In reality, as I later explained to them when I got to their town, it wasn't the deal I offered in as much as how I approached it and the business approach I used behind it. From what I remembered it was a great show. In the end, we only had wished we had added a second show the same day, which I wasn't confident was a good idea in such a small community.

Another thing is on the perception issue. If a performer is willing to drop their needs and concede to terms far from what they stated they were seeking, to me this could demonstrate lack of professionalism, credibility or position that you know what you really need for this to work and while you are willing to be flexible and work with them to an extent, you can not compromise your true needs.

I'll provide you another example. A school had contacted me to come to their school. I gave them my fee which they freaked out at. Said they'd never paid that much for any performer, presenter or program. I said the other option is I offered another format that would allow me to do their show for free (just travel expenses) if they followed my exact format to the tee. It involved charging students/parents to come to an assembly. They said that they had never done anything like this and that they feared being such a school in a distressed small area, that not that many students would be interested enough and willing to pay. I said my structure and step by step program would take care of that issue.

There theater only holds like 600 capacity. Long story short they have already got I think 1200 or 1400 attendees signed up to attend. The problem is they have more students than hey can accommodate so they are renting a local theater for the assembly and transporting the students to the public theater a few blocks away.

On top of it, I included the option to sell BOR/merch before and after the event which I likely couldn't have done if they had paid for the assembly and it was held at their school. It is all in the art of the business behind the show. It is coming up in a 5 or 6 weeks or so, and I'm excited about it. It should likely be a much bigger payday than if they had accepted my price and now I have the theater bending over backward to accommodate me and thrilled to have me.

My horror stories would be more learning what I now know the hard way, including about Mr. Murphy and his Law messing me up. Like the event I had the night of OJs now-famous Brono chase. Lost on that one big time. Thanks OJ!
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
19045 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
I remember in the 90's doing a deal that ended up being on the night that the Cubs were actually in the playoffs! Oh so painful.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
8800 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
The thing I have found is other than things like the Cubs, OJ and Murphy's Law, is most of the things that were problematic were mostly my own fault. People often don't see the road, the scars or the bruises that were endured to get the answers, knowledge, skills, and experience we often share here today. They really don't see these crucial missing parts. This is why I often say it's not always what you learn to do, but just as much as if not more in learning what not to do....and why!
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
19045 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Oh unfortunately most of the problems were of my own making.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Senor Fabuloso
View Profile
Special user
614 Posts

Profile of Senor Fabuloso
For definitions and terminologies I suggest readers of the thread to not just accept what they are being told. Google is your friend and will let you know who to listen to.

4 walling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_wall_distribution

4 walling legal https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/four-w......ent-law/

2 wall deal http://illusionbooks.com/how-to-two-wall......iners-2/

Just a bit of due diligence will educate you on the truth about the industry. The opinions are just that and worth their weight in BS.
To hate those who hate is righteous.
charliecheckers
View Profile
Inner circle
1917 Posts

Profile of charliecheckers
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
For definitions and terminologies I suggest readers of the thread to not just accept what they are being told. Google is your friend and will let you know who to listen to.
4 walling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_wall_distribution
4 walling legal https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/four-w......ent-law/
Just a bit of due diligence will educate you on the truth about the industry. The opinions are just that and worth their weight in BS.


Interestingly, the two descriptions you offered had major differences in terms of the historical content as well as the details of the arrangements.
Senor Fabuloso
View Profile
Special user
614 Posts

Profile of Senor Fabuloso
They also had different context. Legal and not so much. But you missed the point which is to not just believe what people say in forums and to verify that which is being said.
To hate those who hate is righteous.
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
8800 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
I'm sorry but you are missing the point. First, finding something on Google is not doing due diligence. Second, these are A.) very basic general overviews, B.) Outdated and out of context for what we are speaking of here, and C.) contain some incorrect information in today's marketplace.

As I've said here regularly, you have to be careful who you listen to and what info you accept. All you are offering in an opinion. An opinion that could affect someone else's money and income/loss. Other's here prefer to deal in fact or experience.

Who would one prefer to listen to - Google information that is on the internet much of which offers, incorrect and incomplete information ....OR...from those that have done hundreds of these performances and still do as part of their business model? You can decide what you wish and base your opinions on such, but let's deal in reality and compare apples to apples, not watermelons to kumquats.

Armchair business by someone with no experience in the area being discussed is cheap and easy to offer. But the goods based on actual industry knowledge, positions and experience will trump it every time.

I urge you to put your money where your mouth is. follow your "Google advice" and invest your own money in that basic, general and outdated information, or put your money into what of these offer in real-world experience. I deal with this area regularly here in Las Vegas and every Spring now for 29 years on my annual tour. Danny has the same real-world experience in Branson, Florida, Vegas and other prime parts around the world. Perhaps you should be a little better versed in both what you are talking about (not relying on Google for your knowledge) and with whom you are casting stones.
TomBoleware
View Profile
Inner circle
Hattiesburg, Ms
2569 Posts

Profile of TomBoleware
Just a thought but the problem with getting caught up in using ‘show business’ terms is clients, and in this case small theaters, don’t usually have a show business background. Most small town theaters are run by normal local people. It’s there mainly for local groups and the occasional out of town performer trying to speak a different language can be viewed as a pain in the butt.

I’ve watched magicians lose the audience in trying to perform a card trick while attempting to describe card moves that only a magician would understand. Much like the ole saying, ‘plain language is easy understood’ and it does seem to work well in most cases. Still I do agree it doesn't hurt to understand both languages just in case you do need it. But rarely is there a time to complicate things. Remember to KISS (keep it simple stupid) the client.

Tom
A habit is a habit until you realize you doing it, then it is a choice.

The NEW Daycare Magician Book
https://www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

www.tomboleware.com
Keith Raygor
View Profile
Special user
Naples, FL
922 Posts

Profile of Keith Raygor
I am involved with 2 large theaters that bring in national touring acts for one-nighters. Sometimes, the events are produced in-house, and sometimes outside promoters bring in the acts. In addition to this, I've been a part of a small group that 4-walled (rented) a theater (390 seats) for large productions successfully presented to the public on 5 different nights in 5 different years.

As I said earlier, the concept of 4-walling has always meant the rental of the theater space. Merriam-Webster dictionary and Wikipedia also define it the same, and as do others in this industry.

The OP's question was a simple one that was derailed by Mindpro's first post and first sentence declaring incorrectly <i><b>"Let's be clear, this is NOT a 4 wall deal."</i></b>
That's quite a declaration given only the OP's short opening post. Also, this response does not address the OP's topic, which was 'has anyone else experienced this?'.

When questioned, Mindpro then said there are "major differences between a straight rental and a 4 wall deal agreement."
There's not.
But rather than explain the differences between them, his posts obfuscate the OP's, Lou's, and others' questions by bringing up:
<i>PLA agreements, Insurance policies, Meet and greets, Load-in/out access, Arrangements and details, Marshalling, Music licensing (ASCAP, BMI SESAC, etc.), Ticketing, Parking, Permits , Unions</i>

Though these are all aspects of producing events, and are dealt with in as many different ways as there are venues, they do not define whether a deal is 4-walled, 2-walled or in-house, and this is not what the thread was about. These are just details meant to be worked out when negotiating an agreement.

Mindpro also said <i>"If they are unfamiliar with such type of deals or arrangements how you present and educate them to such an arrangement can be the difference between a profitable deal or no deal at all."</i>
I have never experienced someone in this business that is not familiar with, or uses, the term 4-walling or rental interchangeably.

Remember, Mindpro is selling 'coaching and consultation' products, and has never been a magician or performed a magic show. That's not critical, but I think it helps to know. Apply the same criteria to him that he expects from others.
Here's the questions he posed to ask those sharing information, and these are quotes:

<i>What is your experience?
Who are you to offer such information?
What areas or markets is your experience in?
What is the backstory to gaining your experience?
How long have you been practicing this knowledge and experience?
What have the results of your personal experience been?
How does this differ from other products based on the same experience?
How and why is this difference?
Why are you the guy to trust or turn to for such services and information?</i>

When asked to supply an answer to any of these questions he asks of others, Mindpro usually references his history of answers. But if you research his answers, you'll begin noting the actual content, and questioning it in the same manner Mindpro does. Just do your research.

As already said, be careful who you take advice from. My name, history and background is open to anyone, and I'm not selling anything. Especially "coaching" to get you through these murky waters of 4-walling. Smile

If you respond in disagreement with me (which is fine), try not to use the words 'foundational' or 'agenda'. Or that everyone is misunderstanding your words. That would mean you're missing the point.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » 4 walling theatre nightmare? (1 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2018 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.34 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL