In the recent thread on 4-walling a discussion arose regarding terminology and deal points. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=44

That thread highlighted the need for a real discussion on negotiation. There are quite a few different strategies to negotiation ( NOLO advocates 11 and is agree with them. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/......340.html ). So I’m not going to bring up those specifics, rather I’m going to advocate that you make your deal point list. Once you’ve defined the list, mark minimum deal point requirements to make the deal economically profitable and operationally practical for you. Once you have done that, you can start negotiating your contracts. Mix and match the various tactics from NOLO and ensure you get your core, everything else you get is gravy.

To give some context, deal points would be required staffing, a/v, box receipt oversight, marketing. Think through all aspects of your engagement, the promotional stage, the sales stage, performance, payments, etc.

You really need to know exactly how it’s going to work and think critically through the process and find out any gaps in your event. You then use the negotiation to iron out your contract details to shore up those gaps. If after all these factors you can’t make a contract that clearly explains how it works and who’s responsible for what, that’s when you walk away.

That’s my opinion of course, what’s yours?

For context I think we need to know how many theaters or performance spaces you have rented?

Danny,

How is my theatre venue experience relevant for contract negotiations? Contract negotiation is both art and science. I’ve provided a process (science) to apply the art (strategies from NOLO) to assist others in their own negotiations. Furthermore, contract negotiation( both process and strategic tactics) is the same regardless of the individual deal points and industry that will be addressed. The need for context you are asking from me wil only be relevant when we are talking about a specific deal. I refrained from expressing my opinion there as this topic is a higher level and different focus than the 4 wall thread.

If we were discussing a specific situation then I’d agree with your request, but in this thread and in this context I believe your request derails its purpose.

So the answer is none?

Walter you have started to want to give advice on multiple subjects. Most of which you have never been involved in and I think context is important. YOU were the one who said so before and all I am doing is asking you to provide some is all. It does not derail a thread to ask for the context from the guy giving the advice.

Keith in the other thread VERY appropriately asked if Cafécheckers had ever rented a venue. He is right. Experience matters.

I think that it is how many contracts have you negotiated. Not necessarily 4 wall deals.

He also stated it was an option and not necessarily a fact.

He is the one a few months ago who said our opinions need context.

Do you and him think all contracts are the same?

Danny,

First I will correct the false accusation you claim as fact that I’ve expressed opinions on matters without any experiences regarding those matters.I have only participated in or started threads expressing opinions on activities that I have direct involvement.

Now on to the venue rentals, I reread your post and believe I misread it as being specific to 4 wall performancing. Thank you for your replying to clarify. With respect to theatre 4 walling, I don’t have experience renting a theatre. But with respect to venue rentals for events and engagements ( conventions, trainings, conferences, and coaching ) I have negotiated terms for convention centers to hotel banquet halls. If I were to approximate the number I’d place it around 25+ including all my experiences in corporate America as well as on my own.

With respect to contract negotiation for deal terms, the principles and prep work I’ve outlined are the same regardless of the contract. If you speak with any attorney with contract law experience they will say the same I’ve advocated. Come in prepared knowing how it will work and what must be there to be functional and profitable. All the rest is negotiable, and if you are being forced to concede key deal points for success it’s usually better to walk away.

My framework for prepping people prior to the negotiation was identify all the key suppliers, components needed, roles, responsibilities, activities, outcomes, and what happens when things go bad. We all have our own minimum standards of acceptability, so I’ve just helped people here by saying:

1. list out what you want and need to achieve your desired results
2. Highlight the minimum required needs to achieve both financial and operational success
3. Ensure those highlighted items are in your contracted agreement. If you can’t get all of your minimum requirements walk away.

Most people enter contracts of all types without proper preparation on how it’s going to work. This lack of design causes problems in the contract and in the execution.

*edit for comment about contracts I’ve negotiated: for total contracts I’ve negotiated is well over 200. Most of them being credit agreements and private placements in the range of $20-30 million.

So you think it is a negotiation when you rent a theatre?

I believe almost everything in life is negotiable. Especially agreements between two parties.

Well there is your lack of experience in the arena glaring bright as the North Star.

I have done more of these venues than you have apparently negotiated contacts. When you come in with no name, like me and most of us, negotiation is simply not possible. Often it leads to not doing the venue at all.

But by all means keep going.

Tom posted this this in another thread.

"They ‘rent’ the theater and they have one contract and it is not negotiable. You take it or you leave it. However some do give the local events a better price on the required deposit over someone passing through town."

Pretty much sums it up. When you are a no name act this is the deal.

Well I am not going to speak for him.

I know not all contracts are the same otherwise they would all go to the same person.

Do you think that contracts don't have an underlying core that you can work off of?

I think that in the context of working with renting or 4 walling a space that the idea that without a name you can go in and "negotiate" is a bit naive and will cost you lots and lots of work.

It's amazing to me how the so called professionals on these threads can just SAY they have experience and that passes AS experience. Most of the time they don't even have the basic definitions of the words they are using yet expect that WE accept them at their word. This is insane and would be like believing that I'm Napoleon because I say so. LOL To those reading these threads VERIFY what people are saying. Understand that online people SAY anything to exaggerate their importance and stroke an imaginary ego. I even met some women online who said the were 25 and so called athletic who turned out to be 45 and a bit round. Little did they know that I like 45 and curvy.

To Walter I get much from what you post. Thank you.

You mean like verify some online pseudonym? Got it. Who are you and what is your experience?

But YOU get SO ANGRY because your hypnosis credentials were asked about that you come here stalking every chance you get now. COMPLETELY missing the fact that I am simply asking Walter to verify his experience in this area! This is what you are, in the biggest fit of irony I have ever seen, ADVOCATING FOR!

Why is it when people get angry they suddenly lose all comprehension of irony?

Are you going to stalk us in every thread on this board now? It must be exhausting.

But I'll help you here. Why don't we start by Walter answering how much experience he has in these sorts of deals? Then tell us how long his actual performance experience is starting from point zero?

Then you can go and tell us your real name and your actual experience. Then show us who you are. Then we can have me do it, though it is pretty clear to everyone here. Keith is an open book with who he is, as he uses his REAL NAME. Throw in Mindpro as well for all I care.

You want absolute transparency and so do I. I agree with you 100%. Let's have everyone be an open book. So go ahead and start. It sounds like a wonderful idea. Then we can asses credibility as needed. I for one am tired of people not using their real names. I think Keith has expressed discomfort with this idea as well. (I could be misremembering.) So lets do it.

I was asking a real question. If you don't want to answer that is fine.

Last time I'll ask.

Do you think there are underlying cores to base contracts off of? And thank you for sparking some thoughts.

I am answering I'm sorry.

Yes short answer is there are core principals across most contracts.

I think though that there are HUGE differences that matter even more though. I will also say that unless one is a lawyer, in the court of jurisdiction, that you can end up very surprised. Sometimes things are not what they seem.

Andy here is all you need to know about basic contracts in general. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/......367.html

Here are some contract templates
https://www.pandadoc.com/entertainment-contract-template/
https://www.rocketlawyer.com/document/mu......act.rl#/ (this one is for musical performers but can be modified.)
https://www.lawdepot.com/contracts/performance-contract/
https://www.template.net/business/contra......emplate/ (this site has 12 contracts to choose from)

I believe these all work for the United States. Other countries might have differences worth considering. Now you can view actual contracts and not have to read BS from non lawyers.

I almost fear to tread into this conversation but I may be able to offer some input from another angle.

I have never booked as an entertainer but I have, some years ago, owned a 300 person live entertainment venue with a stage and separate lounge with a small performance area.

I’ve worked with world class performers and local entertainers and have negotiated hundreds of contracts. (Unfortunately no magic acts.)

Feel free to ask. I’ll answer as best I can.

Dale

Thank you for your answer. I agree with you on this.

Hey Dale, Thanks for posting.

My question is, did you have a set price or did you charge all your customers a different price? I understand you probably charged for extras but I would think each of those had a set price also?

My point is, the negotiations is usually done when requesting added services, length of time, etc, and not on the price of the theater itself?

You don't have to give prices, but could you give us an outline of 'how' you charged.

Thanks,

Tom