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Taylor Haws New user 42 Posts 
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On Sep 7, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote: I totally agree. I left a comment on his video saying that it was far from perfect and that perfect bottom deals do not exist. I was not rude. I even went out of my way to explain that his bottom deal was far better than mine and to complement his skill with a deck of playing cards. oddly enough, a couple hours later my comment mysteriously disappeared! |
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Thomas Gilroy New user Ireland 70 Posts
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On Sep 7, 2018, Taylor Haws wrote: That's disappointing. I think deleting negative comments is poor form generally, unless the comment is particularly obscene or offensive (which yours obviously was not). I think it's much more appropriate to directly address or politely argue your case against negative comments, or don't respond but leave the comment up for debate among viewers. This just strengthens my impression that this video and thread were made for self-promotion or egotistical reasons, rather than a genuine attempt to help his audience improve their bottom deal. |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3226 Posts
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I thought Jason Landayne's bottom deal was the best of any shown in videos in this topic. His rhythm was consistent. Some of the other videos showed a slight pause before the bottom card was dealt. That jumps out to me more than anything else. I'm not claiming anyone else's opinion is wrong, different people notice different things.
They were all much better than my bottom deal though, although if I bottom deal starting with a full deck, by the time I reach the last card, my bottom deal looks perfect. 
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Thomas Gilroy New user Ireland 70 Posts
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On Sep 7, 2018, Bill Hallahan wrote: Not to be argumentative, but I don't think his rhythm is really that consistent at all. While Jason doesn't pause before dealing the bottom card, the swinging movement of his hands toward each other is significantly faster on his bottoms than his tops to ensure this. Also, he has a tendency to pause slightly after dealing the bottom, which is as noticeable to me as a slight pause before a bottom deal. Either way, I think the importance of rhythm is somewhat overstated, as long as the variations aren't drastic. Most people dance to lyrics. Your average person can't keep time with a simple 4/4 drum loop and claps on 1 and 3 if they can. Many, if not most professional musicians can't count 5s or 7s evenly. Slight variation in rhythm is natural, and isn't noticeable to most observers, even if they're looking for it. In the context of a performance, with patter and misdirection, or in the context of a live game, where players are more concerned with watching each other than the deal, I doubt it really matters all that much. Most professional dealers alter their rhythm as they deal around a poker table. I think it would be very unusual if you could sit down and pitch cards to seven seats around a table with metronome perfect rhythm even without any false deals. It would indicate to me that you'd actually spent a lot of time practicing dealing rhythm, instead of developing a natural, imperfect rhythm. |
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Taylor Haws New user 42 Posts
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Jason's bottom deal was filmed in low lighting only from good angles from an unnatural grip, along with music in the background to misdirect from the deal. it's impossible to tell how good a bottom deal is with those factors.
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ASW Inner circle 1879 Posts
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The bottom deal from a modified Erdnase grip has several well known advantages. The key ones are a) that it can be done with zero suspicious noise on the take and b) that it has probably the best optical illusion of taking the top card of any bottom deal. The burn is so good on the illusion that it lends itself as well to magic as it does to gambling demos. The trade off is that the grip isn't as natural looking for a magician audience. Non-magician audiences, including card players, don't have issues with the grip. But even magicians who whine about the grip are a niche crowd - mostly people who hang around forums, so really: who cares?
I'm a friend of Jason's but objectively speaking the video Jason posted looks great. You'd have to be a bit of a dick not to concede that to be the case. Clearly his video is professionally shot to show what this deal looks like for a paying audience. It's not a camera through a glass table view to show the underside. So why would anyone even have an issue with it? For people who feel they have exposed Jason's video as self-promotion: well, duh. Arnold's mechanic grip deal also looks great but I'd want to hear it to really judge its quality. (I already know how quiet a modified Erdnase deal sounds in a normal ambient room environment so I know that a video soundtrack isn't there to cover imagined weaknesses). The mechanic's grip deals have the advantage of having a more natural grip for those in the know but suffer from a weaker burn on the the illusion of taking the top card when dealing to yourself. The compensation is that the deal is done at a faster tempo so that the human eye doesn't catch any fps stutter. The Erdnase deal can be done at a slower pace with an observer burning the top card and they will swear they see the card dealt to the table - a big advantage for various magic applications. Mechanics deals can look great but they can't match this aspect of the modified Erdnase deal. This is because the Erdnase deal allows for greater control and movement of the top card - out and then back into place - and the grip allows for a super clean release of the base card. I've seen guys do terrific mechanics deals, but at a relaxed pace the best illusion is the deal to a partner, not the deal to your own hand. Damian Neiman's deal is an example of how great a mechanics deal can look. (The Erdnase deal looks as good when dealing across the table as it does when dealing to your hand). The key weakness of mechanics grip deals is noise. The compensation here is to generate increased noise on the straight deals to "bring it up" to match the base deal. Not OTT but you have to calibrate to bring the auditory illusion to parity. The other compensation (if you wanted to reduce noise on the take) would be finger re-positioning to maximise clearance - but that would make the grip less natural (only slightly so really only a problem for a bedroom cheater). From a worm's eye view, that will usually mean more finger flash. But again: who cares? There are other grips that have advantages and disadvantages. Including the straddle grip and the Fred Robinson type grip. Frankly, if the modified Erdnase grip is such a taboo (for forum experts) then they should all immediately swop to a Robinson deal. The only person I know who does that grip - the most accurate grip if you want to match 90% of laymen - is R.Paul Wilson. I look forward to seeing all of your Robinson deals going forward.
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"
A magician on the Genii Forum "I would respect VIPs if they respect history." Hideo Kato |
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Taylor Haws New user 42 Posts
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On Sep 14, 2018, ASW wrote: for the last time, we are not saying his bottom deal is bad or that this video was meant to be a glass table view. we are pointing out his ridiculous claim to have a PERFECT bottom deal. if he called his video "Jason Ladayne on the bottom deal", no one would have a problem with it. however, he claims to be absolutely perfect at it, and then only films it from the best angles in low lighting without sound. he is making and absolutely ridiculous claim, and then not backing it up with any evidence. and when I pointed it out to him, instead of defending his case and explaining why he thinks his bottom deal is perfect, he just deleted my comment. can you honestly defend those actions? |
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Shane Cobalt New user 91 Posts
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I was trying to do the best possible bottom deal I could for the camera. To do that requires relaxing and trying to maintain a near-perfect rhythm while holding the deck as softly as possible... The problem is that your likelihood of missing goes up. If I was performing... I'd probably tighten up a bit... It wouldn't be the prettiest bottom I'm capable of, but it would be more surefire. This is great information on dealing flowing bottoms, it should be read again and again. The situation changes everything. Jason wanted you to see the visual best but with considerable risk. Not to mention consecutive deals carrying additional difficulty. Every bottom deal has trade offs, to assume we should handle cards like the laity is madness. I don't expect my doctor to handle a scalpel the way I would handle a scalpel or a chef to handle a knife the way a patron would. Why on earth would you set your standard for normal at the lowest common denominator? I'd reiterate, read Jason's post again. It's good advice. |
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ASW Inner circle 1879 Posts
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On Sep 14, 2018, Taylor Haws wrote: Your problem with this is that he used a targeted search engine title as a marketing strategy? You guys crack me up.
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"
A magician on the Genii Forum "I would respect VIPs if they respect history." Hideo Kato |
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Taylor Haws New user 42 Posts
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[quote/] Your problem with this is that he used a targeted search engine title as a marketing strategy? You guys crack me up. [/quote]
No, my problem is that he just flat out lies about his product as a marketing strategy. Last I checked, that was called false advertising. |
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Thomas Gilroy New user Ireland 70 Posts
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On Sep 14, 2018, ASW wrote: I accept your first point that the modified Erdnase grips allow for a bottom deal without suspicious noise. I do not accept that it is unique in this regard. Your second point is a subjective opinion, which many disagree with.. Quote:
On Sep 14, 2018, ASW wrote: Speaking as somebody who is much more of a card player than a magician, I disagree. Professional dealers deal from a grip similar to a mechanics grip or they deal from a tabled deck. In private games, I've seen players deal from a full grip, corner grip or mechanics grip, in roughly even proportion. I've even been at a table where a player stood and dealt from a tabled spread, like a Blackjack dealer might deal from a shoe. I've never seen an Erdnase grip or a modified Erdnase grip. I've certainly never seen a player carefully and deliberately maneuver the deck into such an awkward looking grip before their deal, and it would be noticed. In any case, if somebody's goal is to have a bottom deal that would fly in a real game situation, I'd tell them not to bother. Every game I've played in the last decade has used a cut card. Not to mention, it's a bizarre standard for a magicians to set for themselves. If your bottom deal is good enough for your performances, it's good enough. Quote:
On Sep 14, 2018, ASW wrote: If you want to use an awkward looking method to perform false deals, or any other sleight, I have no problem with that. I don't think anybody really cares. When you start claiming that method is perfect, despite it's obvious flaws, I think people are justified with when they disagree. Imagine if somebody demonstrated a palming method where they awkwardly turned and flattened their right hand over the top of the pack and took the card away in the palm with the stiff "hitchhikers thumb." If they want to palm cards they way, despite the obvious flaws with their method, good luck to them. Maybe they have sufficient ability to misdirect from the move in live performance. Now imagine they released a promo claiming it was the perfect palming technique. The people who'd complain about it would be a pretty niche crowd, usually people who hang out in forums, but would they not have a point? Quote:
On Sep 14, 2018, ASW wrote: You've posted this in full knowledge that there have been posters in this thread that have not conceded this. You have, quite literally, and intentionally, called each of these people "a bit of a dick." I am shocked that this doesn't violate forum rules. Also, no it does not look objectively great. It looks subjectively great to you. It looks subjectively good to me. It looks subjectively poor to others. None of us is an objective judge. Quote:
On Sep 14, 2018, ASW wrote: Jason presented his blog post and this promo video in the guise of an advice piece for those looking to improve their bottom deal. The blog post is very thin on practical tips and the video completely devoid of any instructional content. Moreover, the presentation of said content seems arrogant and self-aggrandizing to some of us. When a poster respectfully addressed the flaws in Jason's deal in the YouTube comment section, he didn't argue the merits of his method to explain his preference for it. He deleted the comment. You can argue that he's using the title to generate hits in a search engine or attract clicks. I find that to be a cheap, lazy approach to promotion. Again, Jason publicly called out Daniel Madison for the marketing of his Erdnase X Madison project. That frankly now seems a little hypocritical to me, and I'm no fan of Daniel Madison. Suppose Jason had titled the video something like "Jason Ladanye's Best Bottom Deal," and presented it here with a post saying something to the effect of: "Hey everybody, I cut a little promo video of me demonstrating the bottom deal to the best of my ability, I hope you enjoy it. If you like what you see, I'd appreciate if you could like or comment on the video and subscribe to my channel." Now, he gets "best bottom deal" into the video title for marketing value, but without coming off as arrogant or self-aggrandizing. He also avoids the unnecessary pretense of making this video as part of an advice piece. For a short time, he could then respond positively to positive comments, and respectfully debate or ignore the negative comments, deleting them only if they're obscene or grossly offensive. Now he comes off as having a genuine interest in connecting with his fans and helping him with their queries. It would have seemed like he was confident in his knowledge and ability ability, and that his ego could handle respectful, fair, and possibly even constructive criticisms of his technique. I'd have had no problem with that. Actually, I would probably have liked the video, I would probably have commented, and I would probably have subscribed. I would have had a totally different impression of him. I would not have been concerned with criticizing the technical minutia of his bottom deal. Maybe he didn't think to market himself this way, or maybe he felt it would be less effective than the approach he took. I don't know his motivations. Quote:
On Sep 14, 2018, ASW wrote: I know that a mechanic's grip bottom can be performed without any suspicious noise. My own bottom deal from a mechanic's grip sounds virtually identical to my standard pitch deal. Actually, when imitating his take and grip, I've hit bottoms that were essentially silent. I've only been fooling about with his method rather than carefully practicing it and refining it as he has. I have no doubt that an expert card technician like Arnold McDonald would be able to eliminate any suspicious noise from his bottom deal. I don't feel it's necessary for Arnold to include sound in his demo videos to judge his deal, at least not more so than it would be for Jason to include sound in a video that claims to demonstrate a "perfect" bottom deal. Quote:
On Sep 14, 2018, ASW wrote: No doubt the modified Erdnase grips allow for a fine illusion, but I don't believe that the mechanic's grip cannot match it. To make either deal burnable, you have to disguise the fact that the card exits from a plane below the level of the top of the deck. This is usually done by rotating the wrists slightly so that both top and bottom cards for a "V" shape with the deck as they are taken. This handling is applicable to either grip, though I personally found it harder to develop this handling using the mechanic's grip. Damian Nieman has an excellent mechanic's grip bottom deal, as does Jason England. Steve Forte's bottom deal on the GPS tapes was from a mechanic's grip also, he often demonstrates using a modified Erdnase grip also. Quote:
On Sep 14, 2018, ASW wrote: Again, I can perform a bottom deal from mechanic's grip with no suspicious noise, it's as quiet as a typical pitch deal and is virtually indistinguishable audibly. I don't imagine I'm uniquely capable in this regard. I don't feel that straightening the fingers to soften the sound of the release does not result in the grip looking any less natural. For most people, straighter fingers are a natural consequence of making contact with the pad of the thumb on the top card rather than the side of the thumb. Also, by far the noisiest, most suspicious sounding bottom deals I've ever heard were performed from Erdnase type grips. Honestly, I think the sound issue is more a function of the take than the grip. |
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts
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I'm not clear why and Erdnase type grip would create a better illusion than mechanics grip? Is it because there's more cover on the front or the corner of the deck?
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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Taylor Haws New user 42 Posts
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Erdnase type grips do tend to lend more cover than other grips. but if he truly is perfect at the bottom deal, then why would he need that cover?
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ASW Inner circle 1879 Posts
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Perfect!
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"
A magician on the Genii Forum "I would respect VIPs if they respect history." Hideo Kato |
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Taylor Haws New user 42 Posts
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On Oct 7, 2018, ASW wrote: unlike Jason Ladayne's bottom deal |
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KardSharp89 New user 17 Posts
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Quote: On Mar 22, 2018, AMcD wrote:
He's leaving town tomorrow...so let's go ahead and skin him.
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KardSharp89 New user 17 Posts
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On Sep 14, 2018, ASW wrote: Hi ASW. Jason and I have not met...but I agree with you. His bottom deal looks solid. I come from the gambling world, not the magic world and would like to give my opinion from that vantage point. I recently put out a FREE bottom deal tutorial on youtube because I got tired of seeing so many bad ones. In this tutorial I only teach from a modified Erdnase Grip. You can make the bottom deal practically invisible from this grip...but here is the problem with it in the long run... The Grip itself is the give away. I don't even have to see an actual bottom being dealt if I see the cards being held in this grip. Thankfully most of the people (even gamblers these days) will not no the difference. But when playing under fire its best to be 100% certain otherwise things could go bad fast. This is why I use a mechancis grip when playing in a high stakes game. Please check out my tutorial for the modified erdnase grip. I would love your thoughts. https://youtu.be/MzmFiduVxec
He's leaving town tomorrow...so let's go ahead and skin him.
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Vogler Special user Greece 710 Posts
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Maybe you can promote yourself to the lay audience as the perfect bottom dealer in your posters or brochures. But if you come to a magicians forum where your colleagues magicians talking about their craft, their problems and solutions and you proclaim for your perfect bottom deal, you have to wait for these reactions because it is not perfect and you triggering competitive insticts.. Even great magicians with near to perfect techniques know this and know how to behave to brother magicians. Humility is a reaction to the knowledge of those great things mankind has accomplished.
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Taylor Haws New user 42 Posts
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While re-reading Jasons blog post, I cant help but notice a couple of odd things when he talks about discerning a good bottom from a bad one.
first of all he says, "A good bottom deal is one that can be done slowly and with people staring right at the deck." and, ". Don’t waste your time learning a bottom that has to be done quickly to hide the false deal." yet, Jason Laydane does deal the card quickly and snaps it to the table. second, he says, "I’ve heard magicians say that all bottom deals sound louder than tops that you’ll always have a knuckle flash. False. With practice, you can completely remove any knuckle flash and they can be 100% completely silent." but A) his fingers do flash, and B) he does not play the sound, so his claim has no support! |
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts
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Regarding the sound with mechanic's vs Erdnase, I just don't get that. My mechanic's grip bottom sounds fairly close to my top.
Now - if ASW is specifically talking about a strike bottom, then sound might be more relevant, but the Erdnase grip is typically not a strike, so comparing them would be apples and oranges. In fact, I really don't get why the Erdnase would be a better illusion either. If you do a Richard Turner or Damian Nieman style bottom with the index finger on the corner of the deck, you have plenty of cover (assuming that the suggestion is that the Erdnase produces more cover). Here's mine from a bad angle. I dealt them all the same pile so that comparison would be as fair as possible.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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Posted: Sep 7, 2018 12:44 pm 
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