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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Detecting and Preventing Riffle Stacking (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Cagliostro
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This post is in response to Gamblingman007's post under AMcD's Video Legacy in order not to detract from discussion of Arnold's demos.

Quote:
On Mar 28, 2018, Gamblingman007 wrote (in regard to AMcD's Riffle Stack Drill.):

Wow this guy Arnold is absolutely phenomenal. Even though he's not the best I've seen, he sure run a close 2nd place. Excellent work, excellent.


Yes, Arnold is very skillful in performing and demonstrating certain select manipulations and drills.

Quote:
On Mar 28, 2018, Gamblingman007 wrote:

I might be wrong for saying this and please correct me if I'm wrong. The only drawback to this move (i.e. Arnold's drill for Riffle Stacking), that I see is the gathering of the three cards constantly during actual play. How would you or y'all guys accomplish this in a real game with eyes periodically checking out your deal?


That is a good observation and usually only someone with experience and close observation in live game conditions would bring up something like that. However, since you mentioned it, there are a number of distinct areas in which a riffle stacking sequence may be detected or at least suspected and subsequently bring a lot of heat on the mechanic - or in the alternative, as hinted at in the post above, the opportunity to riffle stack may be severely limited.

One area of detection or suspicion is in the stacking of the cards themselves. The other area is the ancillary preparation necessary before and after stacking to get the desired cards into play. One of those areas, as mentioned by Gamblingman007's quote is in the selection of the cards to be stacked.

This is given almost no attention in demos since the selection is usually done openly and the cards to be stacked placed on the top of the deck. Therefore, for demos that observation would be irrelevant because that is not the function of demos. Demos of "moves" simply show how proficient someone is in performing a specific manipulation in singularity - to the exclusion of all else. However, in a live game with observant players, the selection of cards to be stacked cannot be glossed over cavalierly and could present serious problems.

This is one area where an observant player or players may notice cards are being culled or selected in order to "do something." In a game with reasonably knowledgeable and astute opponents, unless the selection or culling of the cards to be stacked is done deceptively and cleverly, it can bring down a lot of heat/suspicion on the mechanic and possibly result in subsequent detection of his cheating ploy (in this case, riffle stacking). Then again, in fast company games the opportunity for culling are often very limited as the game procedure may hinder that endeavor. (For example, a rule that all discarded cards are to be tossed into a specific pile on the table face down and no one is allowed to toy with these cards, pick them up, look through them or arrange them in any way during the play of the current hand.) Of course, in a very lax game where no one is paying attention, this may not apply.

This is only one of several areas where a riffle stacking may be suspected, detected or simply hindered to such as a degree to where it may not be judiciously utilized.

But once again, for the demos shown on this BB, practicality of real world application is usually not relevant. They are simply demonstrations of manipulative "moves."

If there is any interest in further discussion of this subject, I will add additional commentary to this thread. If not, I will simply let it die.
Peterson
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Interesting discussion. I will certainly want to hear more about it. But the original comment of Gamblingman007 and your comment threw me off a little bit. You are both talking about "after stacking" and Gamblingman007 said "periodically checking out your deal". As far as I'm concerned there is not "after" or "checking the deal", because of the nature of stacking there is no need for further manipulation. You stack and deal the cards normally.
If you mean "beating the cut", then that will explain half of it.
Gamblingman007
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Mr. Cagliostro as eloquently as you spoke and stated your case, this did not explain the question I originally asked “How would you or y’all accomplish this in a real game;” this question was directed to the two stacking experts (Mr. AMcD and Mr. Jason Ladayne) unless you can stack as well as they. I asked them this question because as excellent as they can shuffle, how would they actually do it in a real game.

A gambling buddy of mine when he chose to deal trips, what he did was place one of the cards that he wanted to use at the bottom of the deck then after 2, 3, or 4 deals while keeping the selected card at the bottom and gathering up the dead wood, he would then place the second matching card at the bottom of the deck, then again after 2, 3 or 4 deals he if he found another matching card he would do it again and this is how he got his trips together at the bottom of the deck without anyone noticing or paying attention to him. Obviously he would then bring them to the top of the deck and stack them according to who he want to send the hand to; the detection that you speak of was never noticed.


The Gamblingman007
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Mr. Peterson to me, Mr. Cagliostro and I were totally talking about two different things and you got me wrong as well; I was talking about the gathering of the cards before they are stacked not the stacking.


The Gamblingman007
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I have answered many of your questions above dozens of times in the past. Briefly:

- In my videos I DEMONSTRATE moves, it's for entertaining, instructing purposes. Therefore I use short links. For instance, I START with the cards to stack already on top. The point is to demonstrate what is possible to do, not to show EXACTLY how it's done.

- In actual games, I had very few opportunities to stack 3 cards. 2 cards were much more common. And often it was not a pair, but two good cards, like AK or AQ or KQ. In fact, it depended whether I was central dealer or whether it was games where everyone deals in turn.

- There are zillions of methods to gather 2 or 3 good cards. Using cards from your own hand, one or two from the last round (in Hold'Em, you can see the cards of the Flop very often), getting cards from your partner(s), etc. Not to mention using marked cards. It's also not a problem for me to stack 2 good cards out of a genuinely shuffled deck.

- I played amateurs games. It's useless to oppose Casino environments to what I show. In my contexts, even if conditions were not necessarily "lax", 4 or even 5 riffles were not a problem. The norm was 3/4 riffles though.

- As much as I could, I used pre-stacking, which saved many manipulations.

- Unless you keep big gaps while stacking (in order to keep the slug intact), it's very difficult to detect card stacking. You are merely shuffling cards. And at the speed I use, you would need a camera.

- The best way to fight against stacking is to shuffle the deck again, using a different player!

- I've been caught doing or trying stupid moves, but never while stacking. Well done, it's very hard to see. And suspicion is not enough Smile.

- Last, the "Everyday" video is a gift for old friends of mine, certainly not a Gambling demonstration.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Apr 1, 2018, Gamblingman007 wrote:
Mr. Cagliostro as eloquently as you spoke and stated your case, this did not explain the question I originally asked “How would you or y’all accomplish this in a real game;”


The reason I did not go into detail is because in big private games where the players deal in turn, (almost a thing of the past), it takes planning and practice. It is a team effort, the person doing the riffle stacking is only one part of the equation. To do this without arousing suspicion is usually a team effort, but I am not going to go into detail about that on a public forum. There are a number of ways to do that deceptively, including even using prepared cards if necessary.

With a center dealer, getting a card to the bottom and another card to the bottom several deals later is one effective and more common way to do culling in that venue. Of course, that would not apply when all players take turns at dealing.

In big games with knowledgeable players, riffle stacking is not used that much. There really are much better ways to go in those circumstances. Although I should mention we used a form of riffle shuffle work years ago in the professional draw poker games in Gardena (both high and low ball draw), but the stacking was done differently that that commonly shown and when culling, one simply usually worked from where the cards lay, i.e., 3rd from the top, 4th from the bottom, etc. One could not openly select cards and arrange them on top or bottom in those circumstances – at least not in the really big games where the more knowledgeable players were. (In the low stakes games in Gardena, a lot of amateur nonsense was attempted -- and often caught.)

Again, with riffle stacking detection and suspicion usually occur before and after the stacking procedure, at least not if the stacking is done deceptively and well. Of course, a less than optimum riffle stack has a number of areas where suspicion and possible detection can occur.
Gamblingman007
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Thank you all for your help and output, it is much appreciated. Mr. Cagliostro back in what you call the Gardena period, era or club did you ever hear of a player(s) by the name of Moon and a dealer by the of Roderick? That’s the only names that I remember hearing my acquaintances talk about.

The Gamblingman007
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Mr. AMcD I’m new here to this board and I apologize for reasking a question that you already answered previously but by you answering me, now I know that you really played cards for a living or whatever and you’re not just a demonstrator not knowing the intricacies of playing for real.

I wrote previously that I’ve seen someone shuffle better than you but actually I’ve seen two shuffle better than you but since one is now deceased there is only one better than you and to be honest with you, he’s a very hard act to follow; I believe you know of him. For the record and for what it’s worth, you are the best so far as visually teaching it and explaining it.

Bottom Line: As a Gamblingman007 this is only a great technique if you’re a stationary dealer in a Hold’em game and nothing else. You can’t keep dealing yourself the winning hand every time you deal in a regular game because it’s going to bring suspicion on you as being a cheater and once suspicion is suspected you’re on your way out the door unless you’re dealing the hand to your partner.


The Gamblingman007
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Apr 1, 2018, Gamblingman007 wrote:
Mr. AMcD...

I wrote previously that I've seen someone shuffle better than you but actually I've seen two shuffle better than you but since one is now deceased there is only one better than you and to be honest with you, he's a very hard act to follow; I believe you know of him. For the record and for what it's worth, you are the best so far as visually teaching it and explaining it.


Whether or not someone could or can do basic riffle stacking better than Arnold is arguable and somewhat subjective. But what is not up for discussion or even arguable is...in a previous time and place, Arnold would have been the fastest gun in town.
Smile
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Apr 1, 2018, Gamblingman007 wrote:
...Mr. Cagliostro back in what you call the Gardena period, era or club did you ever hear of a player(s) by the name of Moon and a dealer by the of Roderick?...


No, back when I was playing Gardena there were no house dealers - the players dealt the cards in turn - eight handed games.

I don't like to mention names -- anyone can throw out names from time to time -- but some of the old-time bigwigs of poker were playing there, off and on, at that time.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Apr 1, 2018, Gamblingman007 wrote:

Bottom Line: As a Gamblingman007 this is only a great technique (riffle stacking) if you're a stationary dealer in a Hold'em game and nothing else. You can't keep dealing yourself the winning hand every time you deal in a regular game because it's going to bring suspicion on you as being a cheater and once suspicion is suspected you're on your way out the door unless you're dealing the hand to your partner.


Precisely. Many years ago in private games when using the riffle stack, where each player dealt in turn, being teamed up with 2 or 3 other players, using what I call "light" collusion and then stacking a hand for yourself or preferably one of the partners every five or six times around the table gets the money and does so very nicely without any heat.

The frequency of stacking depends on how the cards are running. If the team is doing well on the square, nothing further is necessary. If the team needs a boost every now and then, then shoot out a good hand to help the team effort.

A hustling team can last forever doing it this way. The big money in any game, private or otherwise, is usually made by a team effort, not by a single-o player.
Gamblingman007
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Quote:
On Apr 1, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

Whether or not someone could or can do basic riffle stacking better than Arnold is arguable and somewhat subjective. But what is not up for discussion or even arguable is...in a previous time and place, Arnold would have been the fastest gun in town.
Smile


No disrespect to you Mr. Cagliostro but I’m somewhat a still active gambler today (not as much as I used to be) and even though I’m old and new posting at this forum trust me, I’m not new. I’ve been lurking around here for many a years now. Yes I know or knew everyone on here at one time (by reading their post of course) or another and I even knew when you arrived. I said that to say this, if I say two were better than Mr. AMcD it is not arguable; and what they are doing now is definitely not BASIC RIFFLE STACKING, these guys are far beyond basic unless you’re a professional riffle stacker yourself of which I don’t think that you are; neither am I for the record.

At one time (years ago) it would’ve been 4 or 5 better than AMcD but not any longer. I’ve been lurking around here for so long I remember when he was looking for information about stacking. lol. I also remember when Mr. Joey who is an excellent card handler (from watching his videos) now was just starting out; this was all before you even showed up. And to let you know how accurate I am about what I say, I may not be 100% correct but I believe that I’m 99% correct and I mean no disrespect to you by saying this; that “you never posted a video of what you can do since you’ve been here on this forum.”

No I may not be better than you Mr. Cagliostro but I sure do know a lot about them that post or used to post here and how they have advanced throughout the years and I believe that my observation is correct.

Oh one more thing before I go, you state that in a previous time Mr. AMcD would have been the fastest gun in town. I beg to differ because in his previous time he didn’t possess the skills that he has now because currently he’s at his peek (but could still go higher), and he wouldn’t have been the fastest gun in town only because he’s currently a Ringo to those in the know like myself; he knows that there’s a Docholiday that currently exist in stacking who’s better than he is and he’s now practicing to be like him or to surpass him.

Bottom Line: Anyone on this forum interested in learning stacking, Mr. AMcD is the guy to go to because the other gentleman is currently an active gamblingman and is not about to teach any of you anything.

If I’ve offended anyone by what I just stated, I apologize.

Mr. AMcD that post that you posted of you and Mr. Jason England’s stacking accuracy was very enlightening especially for me. Thank you for posting.


The Gamblingman007
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Quote:
On Apr 1, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

The big money in any game, private or otherwise, is usually made by a team effort, not by a single-o player.


Even though you are absolutely correct in what you are saying what about that single-o-poker player that used to frequent here that got banned by the name of Doc. He was a comical type of fella and he talked a lot, but I learned a lot about a lot of things because everybody was always interjecting their thoughts and ideas into what he spoke about. Those were this forums good old days, everybody was posting not just a view like now. Don’t get me wrong I still love what is posted but everybody who Mr. AMcD listed in his riffle stacking video practically posted here; that’s all I’m saying.


The Gamblingman007
Cagliostro
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@Gamblingman007: I was joking. Maybe it did not come off as such...but it was an attempt at humor. It was not meant to challenge your observations. I mean, the fastest gun in town? C'mon...be serious.

But, sorry if it was offensive.

As far a riffle stacking goes, there is much more to it than the basic riffle stack technique that people demonstrate on videos. considerably more actually. In fact, that basic move is almost passe at this point in many venues because it has been bandied around and exposed too much on videos, YouTube and other venues...unfortunately in the hands of incompetents at times. I am aware of that. In fact, basic riffle stacking has pretty much in part devolved to the demo and magician card man set at this point.

However, getting away from the basic technique, one can stack from the bottom up and top down simultaneously, use partial strips and partial block transfers, partial perfect shuffles and so forth in combination or in part to eliminate blocking, speed up the stacking and increase the deceptiveness of the move. One can even use combination cull and stacks in 3 to 4 shuffles using cards that have some previous preparation. Still, in my opinion it is not the best way or even close to the best way to get the money in card games.

So who is the best or not the best at doing a particular move, whether it is riffle stacking or some other manipulative move, is interesting for BB discussions but really has little to do with getting the money in various situations and venues.

In my experience, I have never heard a pro discuss who can do a particular move better than someone else because it is in large part irrelevant, at least as far as getting the money goes. Doing moves on videos and comparing such is more in the province of the demo and magician card man set.

All the pros ever wanted to know was, can you get the money or not?

Simple!!!

'Nuff said...
Gamblingman007
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Thank you for not taking my response with disrespect.

Wow what you just said proves to me without a shadow of doubt that you have been there and you know how to get the money. Your details about stacking and getting the money is absolutely correct and can only be known by someone who’s been there and done that; my respect goes out to you. My friends would say as long as it gets the money they don’t care how it looks; can it get the money.

Take care Mr. Cagliostro and may the Lord bless you and yours.


The Gamblingman007
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Quote:
On Apr 1, 2018, Gamblingman007 wrote:

No disrepect to you Mr. Cagliostro...by saying this; that you never posted a video of what you can do since you've been here on this forum.


No offense taken and you make a good point. However, does anyone have any good ideas as to the reasons for this?

Well...here are some possible reasons as to why CAG does not post videos or expose anything new or out of the ordinary...

***CAG is afraid to post a video because he is not really very proficient or knowledgeable about doing standard "moves," i.e., the kind of manipulations that kids and amateurs post on YouTube and that have been bandied about and exposed over and over and over again, ad nausea.

***CAG really doesn't know any good moves or anything new and different. He is just a blowhard that only talks a good game. Let's face it, if he really were any good he would show us. After all, actions speak louder than words. Isn't that obvious?

***Only top professionals post videos, for public exposure and viewing, of little known moves and methods they use or have used under fire. This altruistic act levels the playing field and gives those people who don't know anything about current methods and ploys used by pros a fighting chance to protect themselves. Further, by showing and exposing these methods it makes them pretty much useless, much like most of the other demo moves out there, and therefore protects the public even more from this nefarious activity.

Since an amateur like CAG obviously does not know any of these things, it automatically eliminates him from exposing such information as any real pro would readily do.

So, take your choice from the above possibilities. I doubt there could be any other reasons other than those given. Smile
Mr. Bones
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Quote:
On Apr 10, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
I doubt there could be any other reasons other than those given. Smile


And all this time I just thought your camera was broken and you hadn't got around to fixing it yet Smile
Mr. Bones
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Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Apr 10, 2018, Mr. Bones wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 10, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
I doubt there could be any other reasons other than those given. Smile


And all this time I just thought your camera was broken and you hadn't got around to fixing it yet Smile


A camera???? Must be one of those new high tech inventions. I'll shop around and see if I can find one.

Sometimes I get the feeling the world is passing me by with all this new technology. Smile
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