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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » May The Force Be With You (14 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Cain
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A few general comments:

Quote:
On Jun 14, 2018, RiderBacks wrote:
Nobody should use the criss-cross force. Ever. Yes, I'll get pushback on this, as I have in the past, but seriously... This is for people with zero chops who can't rely on anything better than time-misdirection.


It's great when people take a strong point of view, but those who fail to back it up are just blowhards. More than a few masters have expressed a preference for subtleties rather than moves. Have fun with your diagonal palm shift.

Re: This "Study"

I was more familiar with the blog in its previous incarnation (and it was great, especially the comments about the Café), but I don't think this is rigorous enough to call a "study." It's more comprehensive than most evidence in magic, but that's evidently not saying much. Approximately half of studies published in peer-reviewed journals are not replicable. A diehard fan of the classic force could always say, "they're doing it incorrectly," or "I know what works for based on how my audiences react." Of course, the motive for getting research published is not necessarily to expand knowledge but to secure tenure (or more funding). This experiment strikes me as honest and disinterested.

The Classic Force: "Hey, it might not be convincing, but at least it doesn't always work."

I attended a lecture from a well-known magician. He spread the pack hand-to-hand for someone I knew, and the force card was drawn. Triumphantly, he asked, "Did you know that was a classic force?" The guy's eyes widened and he said, "No clue." The whole thing seemed obvious to me, so I later asked if he tracked the method and he said, "Of course."
"Why didn't you say anything!?"
"Because I didn't want to be THAT guy."

In a concurrent thread, a well-known magician said that for decades audiences have -- without fail -- believed that a selected card was hopelessly lost using a double-undercut and jog shuffle. Lesson: Spectators trick magicians. It's a two-way street.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Harry Lorayne
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You may be tricked by spectators - I never have been. So, yeah, I do many different controls - but basic, when I'm doing a select-a-card trick, which "ain't" often - double undercut and into overhand injog shuffles ALWAYS makes my audiences believe that the vital card is hopelessly lost in the deck.

Probably not the case when YOU do it - it sure is - after about 80 years of experience and working for much, much, more sophisticated people than I'm sure you ever knew, plus all, I mean ALL, kinds of audiences all over the world - when I do it. I've stated it many times - the overhand injog shuffle covers a multitude of sins. So, forgive another cliché of mine - to each his own. I just love it when so many with much less experience than mine are ready to "advise/teach" others. A few of those in this thread. For example, as RiderBacks advises - "Nobody should use the criss-cross force. Ever." He really KNOWS - God save us!
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

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warren
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Another thing important thing to consider when using a force is to use one that is appropriate to the settings ie if a spectator is close enough to actually reach out and take a card then something like a riffle force and those of a similar nature look out of place unless your presentation provides a reason for such an unusual way to have a card selected, where as if some one is sitting on the opposite side of the table and can not actually reach the cards now the riffle force and those of a similar nature now look natural.
Harry Lorayne
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Goes without saying - although I've had people walk over to take a card from my hand-to-hand spread. And they were glad to do it. And, because of what I was doing, etc., it was appropriate to the situation (or settings)... obviously.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

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Cain
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Quote:
On Jun 14, 2018, Harry Lorayne wrote:
double undercut and into overhand injog shuffles ALWAYS makes my audiences believe that the vital card is hopelessly lost in the deck.


The more people you perform for, the more likely you are to have encountered skeptics who do not believe a card is "hopelessly lost" in the deck. You can be in a situation where a card truly IS hopelessly lost in the deck, and someone will stubbornly believe it's been controlled.

Quote:
On Jun 14, 2018, Harry Lorayne wrote:
You may be tricked by spectators - I never have been.


We've both been tricked by spectators. I'm not aware of which ones whereas you're not aware at all.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Mr Salk
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If I can clarify: "Tricked by Spectator" is simply when a person does not reveal his full knowledge of understanding to the magician/audience.
.


.
magicman29
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No offence Harry but how can you prove that every audience member you've performed for throughout the years you have fooled every single one of them?

Kieran
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I suspect that lay audiences vary wildly in what fools them. Some will be fooled by almost anything, others are extremely sharp and cynical and wont trust almost anything. Horses for courses.
kShepher
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"Nobody should use the criss-cross force." - actually, before reading an article in The Jerx (The Force Unleashed), I thought that was a weak force also. They surveyed spectators and the Criss-Cross force came in at #1, and the Classic came in last. Very interesting. I have since been using it and have never aroused even the slightest suspicion.
warren
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Quote:
On Jun 15, 2018, warren wrote:
Your comments are not wanted here.

I've chatted with Harry many times over the year's and agree he's a true legend who we all owe a dept to however one thing I know about Harry is that he's more than capable of sticking up for himself.

If you truly have so much to offer how about you start your own thread where you can give your advice to those who might actually want it rather than derailing other people's threads.



To save any confusion this post was aimed at Heavyspirit
sirbrad
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Yeah usually those that knock a "simple" sleight such as the criss-cross are usually the same ones who do it wrong and get busted. Although I enjoy doing much harder sleights a lot of times something simple with misdirection is even better, and allows even more relaxation to focus on the presentation. I used the criss-cross a lot when I first started magic 37 years ago and still use it occasionally today and I never had any issues.

The misdirection makes it difficult to keep track of, and most magicians tend to forget how amazed they were at such simple tricks back before they had any knowledge of magic and knew what to look for. So in a sense they become "jaded" and are no able to see magic through the eyes or someone else who does not have those experiences. But "the method is not the trick" what is more important is the presentation and timing, not the sleight itself. There are tons of forces out there also so it is all about personal preference. But don't underestimate how well a simple and easy sleight will work on someone who has never seen it before, it worked on you before you started studying magic as well. That is why you began your journey. Everything is new to those who never saw it before, and these simple sleights are still around after thousands of years for a reason, they work.

Everything you do does not have to be "knuckle-busting", you can floor an audience with a self-working trick and an easy sleight with great presentation. I have done so for a very long time, and seen others do as well. I have also seen magicians bore audiences to sleep with advanced sleight of hand and with poor or no presentation as well. They may have fooled them, but most of the time they only confused them or bored them. The important thing is to "entertain" them. Sometimes having them cut the deck is a lot more convincing due to its simplicity, then the magician trying do a harder force and looking too "technical". No one is a "moron" because they are fooled by magic, that is what it is made to do. Most people do not study magic or know what to look for. That is like blaming a victim for being scammed or robbed, it is not their fault.

Also the more skilled and experienced that you are the more easily you can pull off simple sleights successfully. Which ones you use is personal preference as I said, and also depends on the trick itself and which ones work best with it. Too many magicians forget how easily they were fooled by easy tricks before they started magic. I was floored by the ball vase at age 6, and is the reason why I started magic, followed by the spongeballs, cups and balls, etc. If I thought they were stupid just because I found out the secrets and how easy they were, I would be cheating myself and my audiences out of the same astonishing experiences that I had. Let others see the magic just as you once did, don't assume that everyone has the same knowledge as you do. As I said many times before "simple magic can be simply amazing" thus allowing even more focus on presentation and showmanship.

So it is not surprising that this force fooled most as it should, and will fly by unnoticed if done properly. Only a "moron" would disregard a simple sleight or force simply because he has knowledge of how it works, and assumes that everyone else does also. Usually that is not the case and you can even fool those who do as well by changing things up. "Don't make unimportant things important" (Vernon) or focus on what you don't want the audience to focus on and they won't.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
sirbrad
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"Men and women, old and young—they don't see card forcing as a general term, they see it as a specific thing which means to spread a deck and secretly push a particular card on someone. Wrap your fat head around this: When you do the classic force you are literally mimicking the ONLY process many people associate with card forcing. With that in mind, of course, the actions of the classic force were rated as "least fair."

Which only further confirms that sometimes the "hardest" way is not necessarily the most effective or most convincing. It looks more like "skill" than magic. But sometimes they work fine as well, every situation is different.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
R.S.
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I'll suggest checking out John Bannon's 'Move Zero' DVD series (I'm surprised it hasn't already been mentioned). Lots of great, easy to do routines, many of which utilize the criss-cross force (as well as the Balducci force). In addition, John elaborates on his philosophy regarding the criss-cross force. The set is well worth the investment, in my opinion.

Regards,
Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
miky
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I don't use it all the time (I don't do that many tricks involving a force), but I've found the cross-cut force is very effective. It's fooled some hard-core poker-player friends, who, believe me, are not polite. The most deceptive version I know is the "Psy Cross Force" by Gianni Mattiolo in Apocalypse, February 1985.
R.S.
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Anybody use the Delayed Hindu Force (from Giobbi's Card College)? I haven't used it yet, but it seems that it would be an improvement to (or at least an effective variation of) the regular Hindu Force. What's interesting is that the "delay" effectively turns it into a criss-cross force.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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