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Yehuda Elite user 413 Posts |
I heard long ago that Eugene Burger was not a fan of Chicago Opener. When I met him at Magic Castle a bunch of years ago I asked him why and he told me to call him to discuss it (I assume because it wasn't a one-word answer). Well, I never ended up calling him...
Does anyone know what his opinion was on this? Yehuda |
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magicfish Inner circle 7006 Posts |
I know what his opinion of the DL and DT was.
Perhaps this is what the phone call wouldve been about. I spent time with Eugene in Rochester and we sat at a bar/restaurant table for hours showing me effect after mind numbing effect- non of which used this technique. Eugene deemed it one of the most difficult sleights extant. |
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Tim Cavendish Inner circle 1404 Posts |
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On Jul 20, 2018, magicfish wrote: Was that at NYCAN in 1997? |
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magicfish Inner circle 7006 Posts |
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On Jul 20, 2018, Tim Cavendish wrote: Yes it was. |
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Yehuda Elite user 413 Posts |
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On Jul 20, 2018, magicfish wrote: What his opinion? (Maybe PM me if not appropriate for public forum). Did he think the DL and DT were NEVER good techniques, or just that most magicians do them without motivating the action? Yehuda |
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Steve Burton Loyal user 258 Posts |
When I spoke with him I remember him telling me he felt it was overused and poorly done by a lot of performers.
I had to agree and believe that perhaps 80% of magic literature is card related and if you removed the DL/DT from that, about 80% of those effects would vanish entirely. So a disproportionate amount of magic effects depend on this one sleight. It was a similar situation in the 19th century with the Glide. The original Chicago Opener, (Red Hot Mama) by Al Leech did not use the DL/DT. |
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Poof-Daddy Inner circle Considering Stopping At Exactly 5313 Posts |
I'm tired and a tad medicated so possibly I am missing the obvious. I know what a "DL" is but is a "DT" the same action but a different "Turnmanology" (wink wink, see what I did there)?
I agree that many "magicians" (hobbyests, amatures, theorists, even pros) tend to overuse moves like the DL, the EC and even a DUC. Worse yet some also do them poorly. However, that is my "Magician's eye and thinking" telling me that, not my "spectator point of view". I also think that card magic in general would suffer a loss by removing any or all 3. I did table hopping at two regular restaurants for a couple years every Friday and Saturday night along with a full time gig as A bartender(second) / Magician - Emcee first (we had a small comedy club in our back bar). Although I can (and usually do) a very invisible DL, I have had stumbles that went completely unnoticed (for people who would have absolutely called me out if they did notice) and I honestly believe you "CAN" count two card up from the back with your thumb and do a horrible DL (in "Our" opinions) that will still "most of the time" go unnoticed by the spectator. I guess it is more that "I Feel" as long as "I" am engaging and entertaining, they will never notice the parts I need to "hide". I will also state "for the record" - MY Statements and thoughts here are by no means, meant as disrespect to Eugene Burger's opinions. They are only the humble (and different) opinion of someone who has NOT spent near as many years in the field as Mr. Burger.
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure
Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased). |
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Poof-Daddy Inner circle Considering Stopping At Exactly 5313 Posts |
Got a couple PMs on the DL / DT. Pretty much what I thought it meant. I just never looked at them as two separate moves before, but I guess there “is” a small difference.
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure
Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased). |
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Yehuda Elite user 413 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 22, 2018, Poof-Daddy wrote: Many people refer to them as the same move, but this is not really so. The PRINCIPLE of the move is the same, as they both accomplish the same thing in a SIMILAR way, but they each should be used for different circumstances, and a lot of magicians fail to recognize this. I haven't seen too many people address this, but here are a couple of videos of Aaron Fisher doing a fine job explaining the different uses (I think there is what to be gained from these videos even if you are pretty advanced in sleight of hand with cards- I think these points may be more important than working to acquire the "most perfect DL/DT"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU8PrP_xe48 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxK8STsUxdc Yehuda |
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Feral Chorus Elite user CA 495 Posts |
Burger discussed his issues with Chicago Opener in his Reel Magic interview with Andrew Pinard (Issue 12). His problem with the trick was that in the 1st phase the DL happens at the worst possible moment. It happens at the time when everyone is staring at the card. He then goes on to explain a further problem with the 2nd phase, that it tells 60% of the audience how the trick is done in the 1st phase.
Eugene's opinion, not necessarily mine. -Feral |
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ejohn Special user Atlanta 720 Posts |
The first phase "problem" can easily be solved by asking the spec what was her card. As she answers, all eyes are on her and you then do the DL/DT. I don't buy the second phase "problem". Though only a longtime hobbiest, I've never seen this wonderful trick do anything but totally amaze.
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Leo-Kim Veteran user 359 Posts |
I use a thick card for this effect. It assures me of a flawless, totally invisible strike DL. It also helps me with the reset...
Mikael Johansson Sweden
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing well (Donald Duck)
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
I love the Chicago Opener, especially in my version Chicago Surprise:
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3078 Posts |
Chicago surprise, what else ya need?
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Cody S. Fisher V.I.P. Austin, Texas 1194 Posts |
No disrespect to Mr. Burger or his opinions...BUT I have done Mr. Haydn's version for YEARS with WONDERFUL reactions; close up, strolling, and stand up. Literally "worked" that effect for 5 years at a Dave & Busters...5 hours a night on Friday and 5 hours a night on Saturday...and I honestly do not think that 60% of my audience knew how it was done. With any trick, method, performance, or performer...there is going a wide spectrum of results...the key is how hard are you willing to practice to get those great results? Thanks for your wonderful version Mr. Haydn...
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magicfish Inner circle 7006 Posts |
60%??? Yikes.
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Feral Chorus Elite user CA 495 Posts |
The first time I saw this effect was Red Hot Mama from Michael Ammar's Easy to Master Card Miracles Volume 1. The trick blew me away. I had little experience with card magic at the time, so from my almost layman's eyes it was a very impressive trick. Given my history with Chicago Opener, I was very surprised by Eugene's opinion.
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
This is the second ending:
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warren Inner circle uk 4138 Posts |
Out of interest Pop which version do you like the best 1 or 2 or are you happy whichever way the effect plays out ?
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
Generally, I prefer the first one. It is more magical and amazing. The second ending where the person doesn't take the force card creates a stronger impact and gets a more lively response. But, I have to say that I love it when they pick the force card and then change their minds and pick another card--it seems the performer has total control.
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