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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Eugene Burger's opinion of Chicago Opener? (26 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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martyjacobs
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@magicfish,

I can't see a Flushtration Count in these videos, either. Tommy Wonder repeatedly flashes the back of the packet as a substitution for the move, which isn't really the same thing. This can, in certain circumstances, lead to a more "natural" Handling.

Vallarino is using a very loose and casual handling of his R****a Count. I love the way he handles playing cards. Yes, it looks like something only a magician would do. But we don't expect a ballerina to dance the same way we would in a nightclub, do we?! I greatly admire this more artistic approach to card magic, and many laymen like it, too.

If anyone is interested in this kind of count, they should study the work of Brother John Hamman, J.P. Vallarino, Boris Wild and Yves Doumergue.

Marty
fonda57
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Whoever keeps saying ther are "brutally honest," does that mean that others are not honest because their opinions are different than yours?

As for the dl--my opinion is that a lot of people feel it is a beginner move and they can coast because it is technically easy to do. Just because nobody says anything doesn't mean they didn't catch you.
And this is merely an opinion. Like Mr. BUrger
fonda57
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And furthermore: I saw Pop Haydn lecture here in Evanston, Illinois and he fooled an audience of magicians with his ambitious card, and guess what move nobody suspected?
martyjacobs
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I knew I was experiencing a serious feeling of Déjà vu! We discussed this very issue a few years ago to great length. I recall that I got accused of over thinking the issue. Maybe I was. Here's the link for those patient enough to read it:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......c=328424

There are some great posts hidden in this very long thread. Whit, Barry, Steven and Andrew made some thought-provoking arguments. In short, I think most participants in the original thread agreed that the DL/DT issue could be resolved by performing the sleight during a moment of relaxation.

I still agree with Eugene's criticism of the structure of the routine. In my experience, the second phase does sometimes tip the method to a lateral thinker.

I currently perform "Chicago Surprise", my own variant called "Two Hot to Trot", as well as the original (from time-to-time). If I could only perform one version, I'd choose Whit's take on the plot.

Marty
lynnef
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As far as Darwin Ortiz and the flushtration count, although he said he didn't particularly like it (on a tape); nevertheless it was necessary for the Jumpin' Gemini trick. He did NOT avoid it at all. Come to think of it, the Gemini move is pretty weird too, but very useful for a number of effects. Lynn
landmark
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Quote:
On Aug 23, 2018, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 19, 2018, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 18, 2018, AaronSterling wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 10, 2018, lynnef wrote:
Relatedly, Darwin Ortiz said on a tape he didn't like the flushtration count,

You may know that Tommy Wonder's handling of it was to pause and create misdirection when it was time to do the big move. The count starts at about 1:20 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvURE6ueeEk

Though the best in your face count I've seen is by Vallarino, for example at the beginning of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BjK_n7UHwE

I didn't see a flushtration count in either of the links you provided.

Anybody else?

+1 Hamman Count in the Wonder video.
"I use my five illusions to create the sense I'm useful to six."



You can read my daily blog at Musings, Memories, and Magic
magicfish
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I think Aaron Sterling is confused.
The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On Aug 23, 2018, martyjacobs wrote:
I knew I was experiencing a serious feeling of Déjà vu! We discussed this very issue a few years ago to great length. I recall that I got accused of over thinking the issue. Maybe I was. Here's the link for those patient enough to read it:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......c=328424


Yikes. Back then I could be a real jerk when trying to make a point. Cocaine is a harsh mistress.
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martyjacobs
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Quote:
Yikes. Back then I could be a real jerk when trying to make a point. Cocaine is a harsh mistress.


I actually think it was quite a productive discussion in the end. The passionate opinions connected to this trick are a testament to the popularity of the plot with laymen.

Good to see you back on the boards, Andrew.
kebmo3108
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Chicago Opener is an awesome Trick but I do understand Mr. Burger. The longer I am dealing with magic (as a Hobbyist) the more I have enough of the DL. Seeing tricks with a DL , is ... how can I put it,..... they loose a Little Bit of attraction as you know immediatly how it works... BUT........ that is a magician point of view... for Layman the tricks are still awesome and they have no clue what is going on.....at least here in Austria where nobody has ever heard of a DL Smile . Btw, Pop Hayden‘s Version is very good. There is also one Version with basically no DL at all. It is called Manhatten Opener by Michael Feldmann. It uses 2 old principles in card magic but it is a total fooler, even for Magicians. You have to prepare a little something in Advance while Chicago Opener can easiely performed by adding the card to a normal deck during performance which makes it a miracle. So It does not have to be a opener in my Opinion. It is the perfect example for using a DL. And to make the DL perfect You could Even use a Little bit of Science F........
martyjacobs
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I thought it would aid the discussion to quote Eugene directly on this matter. I've also included the questions (from Andrew Pinard) that prompted Eugene to raise the issue, as I believe context is important here.

Quote:
AP: There are two ways of perceiving what good magic is. There's the perspective of the performer who has to present. And there's the perspective of the audience who is to receive. From the perspective of an audience member, what do you consider good magic?

EB: Well, I think magic first of all has to be deceptive. That's the ball game here. It's about deceiving people. So that is a given. But we've all had the experience, haven't we, of watching the same trick done by two different performers. One person getting great mileage out of it and the other person, it just fails. So what's the difference? Well, what it tells me is that it's not the trick. It's the performance of the trick. Which means it's partly the performer.

AP: What is it about the performance do you think that defines whether a piece is appealing or not to an audience?

EB: Well I don't think there is any one thing. I mean, partially I think that the performer has to be someone who's interesting. I'm not, like Max Maven, I'm not convinced that the performer has to be likeable at the beginning. But the performer has to be interesting to the audience. And the trick has to be deceptive. And, of course, if it's a trick that the performer loves performing—and that's the subtext of what's going on here—that also has a lot to do with it, doesn't it? We've all see show where the performer was bored and walking through it, and that's just not as powerful as a performer who is engaged in his own work. Or her own work.

AP: Have you ever had any material that you have found compelling for you? Pieces that you wanted to perform and then found that you just couldn't do?

EB: Oh yeah.

AP: Can you give us an example, and why didn't it work for you?

EB: That's a hard one. No, like you, and like everybody else in magic, I spend a lot of time working on material that never gets anywhere. And that's one of the hardest things of all, isn't it? To say to yourself, 'This isn't going anywhere.' And you might as well save your time and work on something that might go somewhere. 'But wait a minute. I've spent years on this. Trying to learn this.' Yes you have, but the writing is on the wall and it's time to move on. That's a rough message. Tough love to yourself. And it's very difficult to tell a student that. You've been working on the Chicago Opener for all these years, but you know it's not a very good trick. The Double Lift happens at the worst possible moment. When everyone is staring at the card. And then to do the second phase tells 60% of the audience how the trick was done in the first phase. Ha, ha, ha! So, it's hard to say, you know, maybe you've learned a lot from working on this trick, but if you want to be a great magician you have to move beyond it. 'Cause the trick isn't very good.


There have been some discourteous comments aimed at Eugene and his approach to magic in this thread. I think that they're totally unjustified. I don't mind if you don't like his magic, or his particular style. But please read his books before you criticise him!

For me, he was a profound magical thinker. He used his philosophical knowledge to turn his tricks into pieces of art. He understood the transformational power of magic better than almost any other performer. This article is proof of that:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainm......ory.html

In other words, he deserves all the credit he gets. Oh, and as far as I can tell, Eugene never stopped performing close-up as a professional magician. He was a sought after performer in the Chicago area right up to his passing.

The magic world is much poorer in his absence. Eugene deserves our love, thanks and respect.

Marty

P.S. You can watch the rest of the interview in issue 12 of Reel Magic Magazine.
magicfish
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"Eugene never stopped performing close-up as a professional magician. He was a sought after performer in the Chicago area right up to his passing."

Correct. Another point of confusion for Mr. Sterling.
Rainboguy
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On a side note, Red Hot Mama was one of the favorite and featured tricks of the late, GREAT Jim Ryan of Chicago, one of my (and, I might add, the late Tom Mullica's HEROES of Magic)....

For those who don't know him or have not seen him work, I would like to introduce you to my friend, all-around-great guy, and terrific close-up Magician, Dan Fleshman.........you can check his take on Red Hot Mama here:

http://www.llpub.com/index.php?main_page......_id=2032

Pop Haydn: I hope you've had the chance to hang out with Dan when he has been at The Magic Castle......
lynnef
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There's an excellent article in July 2011 Genii by Jamy Ian Swiss on the DL where he references Eugene Burger "who does not use the DL, and this is very much to his credit." Worth reading, in that he stresses the importance of mastering the move .."if you can't resist the temptation." Lynn
danaruns
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I adored and respected Eugene, and he guided me artfully early on in my magic, but it seems to me that when you eliminate something as ubiquitous as the DL, you are artificially limiting yourself.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
magicfish
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2018, danaruns wrote:
I adored and respected Eugene, and he guided me artfully early on in my magic, but it seems to me that when you eliminate something as ubiquitous as the DL, you are artificially limiting yourself.

And he knew that and was okay with that.
topchange52
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Re the Chicago opener I understand his concern that all "the heat" is on the DL. To alleviate this I do the classic CO but although the first card is freely chosen I glimpse it, so before I do the DL I show the odd backed card and name it before turning it over. At the same time I ask the question what was the card you chose? I have never been called out on doing it this way.
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