|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 [Next] | ||||||||||
Black Hart Elite user Scottish Highlands 475 Posts |
You can read what I think about this in my 'Black Books'. Little 'extras' added now and again - not for every reading, do three things...
1) They get your 'sitters' talking to others and extolling your 'powers' 2) They are entertaining - and make no mistake, you are an entertainer 3) You will impress your corporate clients and stand out from the 'shut eye' readers The original question was - do you? - not do you need to! Keith Hart
Black Artefacts, manufacturer and dealer of weird, bizarre and psychic magic: www.blackhart.co.uk
|
|||||||||
scottishpiper51 Regular user of Gris-Gris 138 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 15, 2018, Black Hart wrote: Good point, Keith. Interesting how most of us (myself included) jumped in with whether we thought we should. Although, it is natural when answering the original question to give an explanation as to why one does or does not. |
|||||||||
The_Mediocre_Gatsby Regular user 169 Posts |
I have my deck wrapped in a tarot cloth. This is an added convincer because it not only looks cool, but it allows me to suggest that choosing cards sight unseen underneath the cloth is something that happens occasionally in tarot readings. This allows me to also use the Black Flag method by Lewis La Val if I want to generate a very specific reading.
|
|||||||||
Lucien Astor Special user Sunken R'lyeh 661 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 14, 2018, Woodfield wrote: - Or you are entertaining people. Try it. As I previously mentioned I sometimes use enhanced readings that have a conclusion, but an infinite number of ways to get there. They still require you use your intuition and interpret random cards.... actually provide an authentic reading along the way. I have read Tarot for decades and enjoy the individual dialogue & engagement that occurs with a classic spread. But I've also had my services retained where the readings have lots of spectators who need to be engaged as well. If my services have been retained for a social engagement (a fundraising event or party) my goal is to be memorable & engaging by exhibiting strange coincidences, evoking synchronicities, and creating minor miracles. In this role I am neither therapist, nor an advisor. My aim is to have people leave the divination table feeling happy and entertained via three principles: 1) by presenting moments of “magick” that elicit a feeling of mystery & wonder 2) by focusing on them, and not myself 3) doing this in a framework that fits their perceptions and presuppositions about what the experience of a tarot reading should be. Sometimes I do this through the methodology of legitimate divination, but sometimes I cheat... |
|||||||||
Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
In the past I've used "Genuine Gypsy Tarot Reading".. So I get to do what the gypsy's did ...
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
|
|||||||||
Magical Dimensions Inner circle 5001 Posts |
I agree with The Black Hart and his 3rd Black Book has great stories in it.
Ray |
|||||||||
Magical Dimensions Inner circle 5001 Posts |
When I hear people say that honesty is the best convincer I think that they haven’t really thought it completely out. If a reader is concerned about not being honest to the sitter by using a small convincer but yet goes on with a reading, isn’t that still lying to the sitter? Isn’t that still dishonest?
Using tarot, pendulum, runes, numerology and other tools are all really lying to the sitters and not being honest. Some might say that they don’t want to lie to their sitters by using a convincer but would still go ahead and pretend that an oracle really is the real thing. How many here uses AtoZ or Ken system? Is it real or are they just a system to appear to read people? And if these are not real, then isn’t that being dishonest and even lying? You can’t have your cake and eat it too? How can people say that honesty is the best convincer when that person continues with the reading? Interesting thoughts, yes? Ray |
|||||||||
Magical Dimensions Inner circle 5001 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 14, 2018, Woodfield wrote: Would you explain why you think this? Why would you say that a reader lacks the ability or trust their own intuition if they use a convincer? Ego has nothing to do with using a convincer. Convincers are used before a reading to ‘tune in’ to the person. It can be good entertainment and can win over people. You don’t need magic tricks as a convincer. A simple billet that is burn in a candle flame is a convincer when that information is somehow given back to the sitter to show that the both of you are now in tune. This reminds me of the mentalist who thinks playing cards has no place in their act and the other mentalist who likes to use playing cards because they see nothing wrong with them. They are just a tool to use. Ray |
|||||||||
Mr. Woolery Inner circle Fairbanks, AK 2149 Posts |
Ray, I'm a little confused by what you just said. I use tarot, runes, and pendulum. I don't lie about any of them. I tell people what I believe and leave it up to them to believe whatever they choose beyond that. A pendulum is a binary communication device between the conscious and unconscious minds. I explain what that means in a couple of sentences and then leave them with the rather profound mystery of a separate layer of thought that is aware of our conscious thoughts and can answer those thoughts, but not be consciously known. That still just blows me away.
Tarot and runes are symbols for archetypal situations or elements of the human condition. The real value is reframing personal narratives to see our problems from a new perspective. I can't see a lie in that, either. I don't claim what I don't believe to be true. I really like the Ken system. I have yet to actually use it as a secret tool, though. As I do read runes, I find it fascinates people to be told what their name means in terms of interpreting the runes that would spell out the name. I'll just write out names in the Futhark and tell them what each rune means. No trickery at all, as I'm simply interpreting the oracle again. The few times (less than a dozen, so not a large sample) I've done this, almost everyone has spent a few moments reflecting about the meanings I give them. It is not a lie to do it this way, but it does add a touch of the mysterious to a few minutes spent together. Again, this isn't dishonest at all. It is being totally open about what I am doing. All of that said, and at the risk of invalidating my possibly-preachy stance expressed above, I like Philemon's thoughts about a marked deck. Now I am curious to see what that might add. As he says, it is still a legit reading, but the reader has a heads-up about the next card. Not sure I'll ever do it, but it is intriguing. -Patrick |
|||||||||
seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 16, 2018, Magical Dimensions wrote: could be... Quote:
If a reader is concerned about not being honest to the sitter by using a small convincer but yet goes on with a reading, isn’t that still lying to the sitter? Isn’t that still dishonest? No, of course not. Why would doing exactly what you are saying you are doing be lying? You could be a raging skeptic, learn how to read plams and then give one, saying 'this is how palms are traditionally read," and you wouldn't be lying at all. Quote:
Using tarot, pendulum, runes, numerology and other tools are all really lying to the sitters and not being honest. No, of course not. You could lie using any of those things (i.e. by saying you think they are real if you don't, ...using convincers, etc.), but doing a traditional form of reading, why would that be lying. Quote:
Some might say that they don’t want to lie to their sitters by using a convincer but would still go ahead and pretend that an oracle really is the real thing. How many here uses AtoZ or Ken system? Is it real or are they just a system to appear to read people? That is more nuanced than the above question/statements. I think that these systems are starting points for genuine intuition, and I consider them to be genuine (for me, and the way I use them), but it could be more tenuous. Also, FWIW (speaking only for myself), I do not use either of these systems in what I consider to be 'full readings' (e.g. 30-60 mn). Quote:
And if these are not real, then isn’t that being dishonest and even lying? You can’t have your cake and eat it too? How can people say that honesty is the best convincer when that person continues with the reading? Again, conflating readings with lying doesn't really work. Quote:
Interesting thoughts, yes? Well, some more than others maybe. Keeping in my mind, I personally am not, inherently against convincers (Ron Martin used them, and he was the man! Docc has amazing stuff in this area too) and didn't say honesty is the best convincer (although, I do stick with the fact the naturally arising synchronicities within a reading do serve the same function that a convincer would). It seems to me (and I apologize if I'm wrong) that you are a materialist and that you assume that those who do both readings and magic are as well, and that if they do readings then they are solely pretending to have abilities that they do not have, or even believe in. That is not necessarily the case, and (as mentioned above) even if it was the case it still wouldn't mean that a reading is lying. I'm assuming (and apologies again if I'm wrong here) that you do short readings within a strictly entertainment context. If that's the case then (IMO) it doesn't really matter if you think of the readings as real or fake, as long as you do them well, and that would be an excellent time to throw some convincers in there (I'm jealous of WA). I've played around and experimented with convincers in these environments and found them to be fun. If you do 60 minute readings with clients, and consider readings to lies and convincers to be appropriate within this context... ...I don't know.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
|||||||||
seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
Just to be clear (since tone of voice isn't included in text), I am not trying to be an *** in the above, just responding with some thoughts. I think 'convincers' are great in the right settings, and just have my own thoughts as to wha those settings are. I also do what I consider to be 100%. legit readings within the context of my show; depending on the direction you look at it that could be considered one large convincer! lol!
I also wonder, as mentioned above, that there might be two groups speaking past each other here. "A reading" can mean a lot of different things. IT reminds me of a very heated debate on the kids magic forum years and years ago. One magician, who will remain an unnamed book review in MAGIC magazine was telling everyone on the forum how essentially everyone there sucked and anyone who used classic kids show material was a hack and was deluding themselves if they thought their audiences liked the shows. Suffice it to say, this drew some disagreement. The whole argument became beyond ridiculous (although it continued for many more pages) when it became clear that this magician did not even consider performing magic for anyone under ...9 I think it was. Of course, 4-7 year olds are man kids magicians bread and butter. Both sides were talking about two completely different things and assuming they the criteria of one fit the criteria of the other. Anyways, could just be me, but I wonder if there are parallels.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
|||||||||
IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Much like self-help books, if they worked, they'd only be one book on sale...
Readings for me, as nonsense and made up, in a very potent and unique way because they are using the sitters needs, biases and wants against them. The more you study psychology and human nature, the more this unravels. And then there's the reader, who follows a set of rules defined by the oracle and then adds their own feelings to it all. Including their world view, their biases, opinions and thought patterns. Then you have how humans are hard wired to related to stories. How we use our words, imagination and biases to project a meaning onto some pictures, numbers, whatever. Yet we are happy to not think too much about the impact of our words and our biases have on those we read for. I have found my own route in readings and have changed my mind on a few things and have established a way to give them that I feel is the most honest, open and fun... Oracle's aren't real in my book. They are a fantasy to enable us to tell stories, nothing more. We should instead, focus more on the sitter, be ethical and honest about what takes place. Rather than cloak it in something that can do more harm than good, even if you are trying to do good. Pendulums only give answers that you want to hear. If you think mystical energy or spirits are moving it, then grab a pendulum and ask "am I fooling myself". And you'll only get the answer you are prepared to hear.
I've asked to be banned
|
|||||||||
IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Readings are as real as a game of monopoly...
Not saying this to flame, just my opinion...I care very deeply about the sitter and am CBT trained (amongst other things). And of late have explained my methods to a psychologist and occupational therapy teacher and have had very good feedback... I always take ray's posts with a pinch of salt...
I've asked to be banned
|
|||||||||
weepinwil Inner circle USA 3828 Posts |
In relation to my post on this thread, some of you have PM'd me wanting to know, "What if there was no autopsy?" I decided to post my answer here so you would stop clogging up my email and PM box.
If there is no autopsy and you need a convince, just roll the cadaver over (the back of the clothing is cut out, anyway) and insert a hot poker from the fireplace deep into the anus. This is a convinced for sure. Ps. You may want to have a barf bag handy, as I have found many people get nauseated at the smell of roasting human flesh.
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
|
|||||||||
scottishpiper51 Regular user of Gris-Gris 138 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 15, 2018, Magical Dimensions wrote: I will use mirroring and matching in a variety of settings - not just with a sitter. There is a certain amount of this that is part and parcel of human instinct and behavior. |
|||||||||
Conus Special user 657 Posts |
Quote:
A well done reading is really its own convincer. I don't have the resources mentioned here for trickery, but I don't see how any tricks can make a tarot reading more meaningful than it already is. I agree. |
|||||||||
thementalcoach New user Sacramento, CA 64 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 16, 2018, scottishpiper51 wrote: I also use mirroring and matching, plus pacing and leading, for building rapport and transmitting empathy in a variety of settings. It works great to help set the mood.
David Kenward - The Mental Coach
One-on-One: Healing Trauma - Hypnosis, Hypnotherapy Groups: Magic, Mentalism Sacramento, California http://thementalcoach.com |
|||||||||
MrPoponi New user Brazil 93 Posts |
This is a great topic to discuss.
Let me tell my thoughts after many years of practice with readings. First, I say that I am a reader, psychologist, psychoanalyst and mentalist. I practice cartomancy, palmistry, astrology and numerology. So I say that the more knowledge you have about diversity, the better you are likely to get a good read. I use everything that exists to make readings, but I don´t use "everything every time". If I use "convincer"? That depends on the direction the reading goes. If at some point I think it is feasible to force a good card into the baby's future, so I will make. If I realize that the death card in the future reading sequence, I can change the direction of the draft before turning the card up. These little details can make a difference, being a good short cut in some situations. The most important thing to say is not good to "plan" to use "convincer". This is something that can arise only in the moment. I also developed a language of its own, containing a kind of (but not quite so) anag**** suitable for reading, which are purely mental convincers. In that case, used to guess signs and reveal some things of baby's past. But there is a kind of "convincer" that I would never use in serious reading, and I don´t even advise anyone to make. "Visual magics." I think that turning the future of the consultant, making the devil's card change on the sun card; making cards appear or disappear; making smoke out of cards, and other things in that direction, would destroy a serious reading. Maybe some friends disagree, but I have that thought. |
|||||||||
MrPoponi New user Brazil 93 Posts |
A few more thoughts.
An interesting point that I consider a balance between use or not convincers, is make St***s. If you use !@#$e sh****s and c**s then you already know which cards will lie on the table. This has the advantage to know what you will say, because you have studied the meaning of this before. The downside is that you are limiting yourself in the art of reading. |
|||||||||
StevenScott New user 42 Posts |
I like convincers. I only use the pro mystic type effects when doing them because they are really beyond discovery and just seem so real. (what are they going to do, check my sock for thumpy things?) I don't get to use them often but when I do and I align with their energy and tell them the ESP symbol face up on that cube in the paper cup on the shelf that I couldn't possibly see....have to use these things sparingly and intelligently and they can really add to a reading. remember Forers discovery. A reading will be believed and accepted as true in direct proportion to the credibility attached to the reader. A good convincer can help to achieve that if the set and setting are right. the late Great Ron Martin used them to some degree so I see no reason not to if the opportunity presents itself. Just my opinion.
|
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The spooky, the mysterious...the bizarre! » » Do you use 'convincers' for your Tarot readings? (21 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.05 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |