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David_MacFarlane New user 53 Posts |
So, I was watching Penn & Teller discuss not getting admitted to the Magic Circle, and they reviewed a lot of what they'd tipped over the years. I thought the review was somewhat gratuitous... while there was usually a point to tipping things in the past, here the chatty one rattled thru a list of most everything they'd tipped, re-tipping it in a way that accomplished little.
But then there was a mention here about guys who tip forcing a card as a regular part of the performance and I realized, I'm one of those guys. "Pick a card, this will work great as long as you don't take the 6 of hearts... what? Pick another, what, no? Let's put the six over here, and take another, no ****ing way..." It's actually fairly amusing, but totally gives away the possibility of forcing (though usually I'm sober enough not to tip the mechanics)... I agree, it's weak and lazy, but how damaging do you think it is? Or, what are some similar bonehead moves you see hacks doing? |
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warren Inner circle uk 4138 Posts |
Personally that's not the sort of effect I would do as that basically eliminates being able to force a card on the same spectators should you ever want to. However it also depends on how well your effect goes down with the audience, ask yourself this does your continuous forcing routine go down better that other routines that require you to force a card and that will give you your answer.
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Mike Powers Inner circle Midwest 2983 Posts |
I see a lot of workers doing the "please stop taking that queen of diamonds (or whatever)" routine. It totally gives away the idea that you can "make" the person take the card you want them to take. I think it's a horrible idea.
Later in your set when you have someone select a card, how could they not imagine that you forced that card on them? The idea of a free selection has been destroyed. Bad thinking. Mike
Mike Powers
http://www.mallofmagic.com |
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Emory Kimbrough New user Tuscaloosa, AL 94 Posts |
I'll agree with the three previous posts, and I'll even take it a step further. I don't use or like effects where a card is forced and then revealed, with no other layers of deception. There are bazillions of these in print and on the market, often with a "cute" revelation. (Insurance Policy, Long Card, etc.)
The plot of all these tricks, dammit, is that you force a card, and then reveal that you must have somehow forced the card. That's rather shallow, both magically and artistically. Here's an example of adding at least a second layer of deception. In a part of one routine that I invented and use frequently, a half dollar previously used in another effect is handed to one spectator for a quick examination, then given to a second spectator to hold. A card is then selected, and later the coin is discovered to have "7C" cut into it, matching the selected card. (It's an old Sterling Card Coin - The "7C" is completely punched out of the coin) So, even if the spectator knows about forces - Heck, even I flat-out told the spectator that I just forced - they would STILL be mystified at how an examined coin came to be altered in their hand. If you want some depth to your magic instead of being a joke-shop trickster, you need some second layer like that. I've read some good mentalists recommend using a blindfold only to further strengthen a routine that would already be strong without the blindfold, or would still be strong even if the audience suspects the mentalist can somehow see even though blindfolded. They don't recommend routines where the entire effect is, if you think about it for a moment, merely somehow seeing through a blindfold. Card magicians should apply a similar wisdom to using forces. |
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3501 Posts |
It's not a black and white thing. How many of you "expose" palming via the invisible palm routine? How many of you expose "equivoke" when you are not using it? (that one bugs me but many do it). When a magician passes a hoop over a floating lady is he exposing wires? Do you ever roll up your sleeves to prove nothing goes up your sleeve?
Also if your character is a card mechanic then repeatedly forcing the same card makes sense. If your character is a mentalist it clearly doesn't. |
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Tom G Inner circle 2895 Posts |
Mike Rogers used to do that, with forcing the same card over and over. Unless a spectator is quite slow, they'll know any card they choose is not a free choice, unless you have other convincing forces that can be done with the cards out of your hands.
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jmbulg Loyal user Belgium 208 Posts |
Actually the question on repeating forces is an interesting one. On my side I do regular university science lectures in front of mathematician, physicists and engineers who obviously are not buying that I perform "real magic". What I do with great success is to start each lesson by a random process defining on which page of the slides the lesson will start. Of course we always start the lesson where we left the previous lesson. At the beginning I use simple forces as they are not yet expecting anything, but as weeks advance, I use more and more advanced forces, including procedures with some interactions and a lot of real free choices by the students. They like it and hear them discuss it during pauses. I know this seems rather solving puzzles but as they generally remain clueless I keep my personality as being surprised how lucky they are because in some years we really had difficult orderings for the lessons. Of course they certainly know I somehow forced the outcomes but I never acknowledge it to keep a little doubt in their minds.
At the end of the year I let them chose their exam questions from a deck of cards they shuffled. |
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Mike Powers Inner circle Midwest 2983 Posts |
Magic Mike - Everyone thinks of wires when they see a lady float. Most lay people have heard that magicians hide things in their sleeves. It's important to negate theories that lay people use to explain the magic. I always work with my sleeves rolled up. Why give them a way to explain where the coin disappeared to?
I'm not sure how prevalent the notion is among lay people that magicians can force cards. But, however prevalent, I don't think it's a good idea to make it obvious that we force cards. Mike
Mike Powers
http://www.mallofmagic.com |
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warren Inner circle uk 4138 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 6, 2018, Mike Powers wrote: I agree with Mike completely on this one. |
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts |
I'd argue that the sense of magic and wonder is most emphasized when the spectator cannot easily jump to sleight of hand as an explanation, even if it is indeed the answer.
The late Bob Cassidy championed the idea of the 'logical disconnect'. For a card force, this would mean making sure the participant truly feels like it is a free choice. A quick riffle force or poorly executed classic force only give a vague sense of choice and do not maximize the potential of a card force. As a mentalist, for me this is even more important, and I won't use a force at all unless it has a strong illusion of fairness.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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peppermeat2000 Elite user 428 Posts |
Your audiences are more polite than you realize. It's 2018 for cripes sake. Do you seriously believe that a spectator is convinced that they are taking a freely selected card when the deck is spread in front of them whilst in the MAGICIANS HANDS?
Trying to eliminate a spectators thought process that a card was forced as an attempt to convince them that the card was discovered later through "magic" is a trifle insulting. Lets give sleight of hand magic the respect it deserves. What's wrong with performing for spectators in the context of them knowing that you're employing sleight of hand...NOT MAGIC...to entertain them. I'll bet they'll be more impressed witnessing the skill you possess rather than being told they are experiencing "real magic". Lets face it...do the patrons of a restaurant drive home thinking the "House Magician" used magical forces to keep the signed card coming to the top of the deck? More than likely their conversation will lean towards how impressive the SKILLs were that he/she used to create the effect rather than discussing the creation of a shrine to worship their new Deity who made sponge balls jump from his hand to theirs through their mystical ties with the underworld of magic... |
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts |
My point is that it's more powerful if the spectator has no idea how it happened. If you do a poorly executed force, or as is being discussed, essentially point out the force, you are detracting for the potential for amazement.
Likewise, if you do a force, you should do your best to make it at least seem fair.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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Mike Powers Inner circle Midwest 2983 Posts |
Of course no one believes you're using real magic. But, as Last Laugh said, "... more powerful if the spectator has no idea how it happened."
With regard to Ambitious Card, you're definitely proving that you can make their card "jump" to the top. If your technique is good, they'll be looking hard and seeing nothing. It's great proof that there's no use in trying to bust you. Hopefully they'll get into the "I'm just watching and digging this" mode of thinking. That's why I think AC is a great opener. We really need to do some scientific research on the ideas being kicked around here. We might be surprised at the results. I think Copperfield does this sort of research when he's breaking in a new trick. They invite and audience in for a free show. Then,at the end, a team (Kenner et al) ask them all sorts of questions including "did you see something you think we didn't want you to see? Also, "do you think you know how this works?" Mike
Mike Powers
http://www.mallofmagic.com |
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David_MacFarlane New user 53 Posts |
That's a little different budget than I'm working with! I ask my wife hire it looks, she says, "Fine", and I'm good to go.😀
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aj7685 New user 6 Posts |
I also would not personally give any ideas or possibilities away. For me, it would distract from the feeling of the effect.
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Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1550 Posts |
I think the problem with some of those forces is that they're used as cheap throwaways. It works if you have a trickster/clown type personality but that's not my aesthetic preference (which obviously tends toward snobbishness).
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
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Mr Salk Special user Tied to 568 Posts |
Multiple joke-forces burn the method, both for yourself and future magicians.
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
Eddie Fechter used to do multiple forces:
Sometimes calling attention to the possibility of a force is necessary to convince people that it "couldn't have been forced" as part of the argument for the impossible. My booklet on the Chicago Surprise goes into this more deeply. If the performer does not raise the possibility and then eliminate it, the spectator might be questioned on it when he later tells the story of his experience to someone else. "Maybe he forced the card on you..." The answer we want them to be able to defend their story of the impossible is "No, it couldn't have been a force because..." We need to arm our spectators with the argument to defend their experience of the impossible. |
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Mike Powers Inner circle Midwest 2983 Posts |
Pop - I agree that we should arm specs with the argument that defends their experience of the impossible. But, in the case of "please stop taking that QD" it seems very difficult at best. Can we get them to say "I just kept taking the queen! He wasn't making me do it." Maybe if you switched in a one way deck for a selection from a tabled spread....
Mike
Mike Powers
http://www.mallofmagic.com |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
That's sort of it. The point is that suggesting a force is possible, and then the magician creates a force that looks like it couldn't be a force. This helps to create the effect of the impossible. Even if one spectator doesn't know about forcing, there will be others in the audience or amongst those to whom they tell what they saw the magician do...This kills the story and the memory of the spectator. He needs to have the ability to say, "No, I know about forcing. He couldn't have forced me because..."
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