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Metalepsis Loyal user 232 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-06-14 14:33, tommy wrote: Hey Tommy, From what you are saying, I sense you are european. Maybe French, no...not French but you have some connection to France or the word France, you know someone who is named something close to this yes? Perhaps you are married to someone who is French or whose name is close to this? The books you are naming are filled with ideas but some books/videos are indeed dedicated to this subject. May I point out that Erdnase is a book about how to actually cheat at cards...There are some magic tricks at the back of course. Is this what you want? There is a great deal of difference between actually cheating, card mechanics, and a routing or few tricks that appear to show you proficiency in cheating. In fact, while I do some performances revealing my skill in this areas (falsely) I sense that Tommy actually knows some techniques that cannot be found in any books Can we have clarification about Cheating v. Gambling/hustler magic? You may even be studying cheating for the purpose of doing tricks...I don't care personally, but I DO think they are seperate schools (although with many common techniques). Metalepsis (please excuse the psychic powers Tommy, I couldn't help myself) |
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Peter Woerde Regular user The Netherlands 107 Posts |
I like the ten card poker deal as an easy gambling routine that still gives the audience the idea your a great card handler.
Peter |
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Metalepsis Loyal user 232 Posts |
The Bar Magic scene in Chicago is something I have heard a lot about. Is it really worthy of being its own school of thought? Excuse my ignorance about the subject but can anyone tell me who the names in this arena are? Doesn't their stuff usually involve a few gambling tricks.
Scarne is good for inofrmation about gambling/cheating. He is an inspiring guy. I find all his stuff good for stories/patter etc. He has a book called Scarne on Dice that has techniques for controlling dice but this has a steep learning curve (LOTS of practice). Still its a good read. M |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
The thing that I feel that is funny in the gambling magic world is how routines are put together to fake it...
There are routines in magic that look like they expose a card sharp move and then they have a way of getting around the move. These routines can be entertaining but then every so often you may run into a person that knows more about it than you do. Fro example there are center deal routines that uses a fake center deal. In fact there is one that is written up in the magic of Fausett Ross... I think it uses the second deal... Many magicians in magic get around the moves and then some magicians take the time to learn the moves. There are a lot of ways to control a card and magicians that want to do card magic do not have to learn the pass. So there is two schools of thought. And the only rule I hold to firm is that anything goes as long as it entertains the audience. But speaking for me personally - I like learning how to do these moves. And I use them in both magic effects and in routines that I do that expose card shark methods. I feel that being able to do the center deal instead of a fake center is a little better. The same with poker stacking and false cuts. I feel that they help me become more bankable in the eyes of the clients that book me to perform shows. Anyway that is my slant on learning the moves or not learning the moves...
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Logan Five Inner circle Northern California 1434 Posts |
Ok.. just a rant. If you look at a lot of the top cardmen today, I would be willing to bet that some of them do some kind of routine in their act that is almost self-working . Is there anything wrong with that?
Most of the performances that I've seen, the performer has already clearly demonstraited their knowledge & skill level to an audience earlier on in the performance. Now, if a guy like in Mr. Chosse example does all easy routines & has the acting ability to come off as a gambling expert, one day he might run into someone that may be onto him or someone that's put him on the spot in front of an audience. I think a really good gambling performance has to have the elements of skill, knowledge and entertainment value( if your act isn't entertaining, all the hardcore moves or easy stuff that you know won't help ). Of course, There are many routines out there that are techinically demanding that are pseudo-routines i.e Ackerman's Opener, God of Gamblers etc. When an audience sees these types of effects they credit us with great skill. And they should, they SEE the impossible or super human ablities at work. It's been stated on this forum before many times that's hustling & magic has nothing to do with each other, I tend to agree with that. Rick
Self concept is destiny..
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
In magic as far as entertainment anything goes as long as the client and the audience are pleased.
But I believe that their is no subsitute for skill. I have done a lot os shows and been on TV. The clip of me doing the shellgame at my web site is a TV appearance. Just before we went live the host picked up the deck and mixed them up. Then he checked the deck to see if it was marked by riffling th ends... I have had many TV appearances like that. There are people that respect skill... As far as hustling & magic has nothing to do with each other... That depends on how a person looks at it. One is done to get the money! The other is done to entertain... And then get the money! I think that they are two sides of the same coin... Others may view it differently....
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
That said...Paul Daniels once said that he avoids doing ANY sleight of hand on television if he can help it!
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Logan Five Inner circle Northern California 1434 Posts |
Glenn-
We agree on the matter of entertainment & skill. And I think it takes a lot of guts to go on TV and do sleight-of-hand. I remember... I guess some 12 or so years ago, there was a VERY famous performer/magician on one of those late night talk shows( Arsenio Hall or Pat Sajak ), or one of those shows. He took these 4 aces then put them in the middle of the deck, shuffled & cut the deck. Then he proceeded to produce them via "pop-out" style from the "center" of the deck. Well, the way the camera was angled , almost to the performers far left.. one could clearly see the aces were definatly not coming from the center. Even my girlfriend at the time ( who knew nothing about magic or cards ), could see where they were coming from. His "pop-out" was great, but the camera nailed him. Yes, I know.. this is the exception. But wouldn't it have been in this VERY famous magician's best interest to do a less demanding routine and do a routine that would make the audience think that he was the most fantastic card handler they've ever seen? In my gambling work, I do most sleights 2nd's , bottoms, centers, riffle stacking etc. But, I don't think I would do them on TV. Sincerely Rick
Self concept is destiny..
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Metalepsis
Chacun est artisan de sa fortune. You may not know me, but I know you. You’re a very sensitive typ of person. When you were younger, you were different from the others around you. You were observant. You'd silently take in a situation and notice things about people in your presence. Your intuition is strong. Your are very caring and honest, sometimes even too much so, but you have great difficulty in letting anybody get to know you. When you finally do let somebody in, you keep him or her close to you for a long time. In fact, there's someone close to you that you’re really worried about right now. But the best thing to do is keep being a positive force in that person’s life. Sometimes you're overly analytical, but it's better to live spontaneously. You have a scar on your left knee. French? No sorry but you were close, next door in fact. I am English. I have been to Paris a few and times and learnt some fine tricks from a young lady that will not be found in any card book. Which was interesting but off topic as is all of this. To get back to the topic. The questioner, I think, wanted some gambling card tricks on film or book so to pretend being a card cheat but seemed not to have great skill at present. So he could do it in two ways. One way would be to learn the work but the quick fix would be to learn a few easy or self-working tricks and easy sleights. I thought, maybe, this particular guy might be better helped by starting him at the lower end of the scale rather than overwhelming him with top end manipulation treatise. Erdnase is such a book but it also contains some easy and deceptive riffle shuffles. Anyone who can do a riffle shuffle could learn, in an hour or so, the Erdnase blind riffle shuffles. Learning a few of the tricks I mentioned above, which would take another hour or so, anyone could be a make believe cheat before a mornings coffee break.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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