I travel often with one of several wireless microphones (Shure U-1 w/Senheiser MK-2, Telex with Countrtyman E-6, etc.) I was wondering about purchasing a Sabine 2400 Feedback Exterminator, for the times when there is not a good EQ or soundperson available. Does anyone have experience with this unit? I want to get maximum feedback before gain where I don't have a lot of control over the house system. Comments? Suggestions?

I do have this, however you don't really need it. I have loned mine to my church because we only have one main speaker and it's directly under the pastor. Now that he's gone to using a E-6 I don't think the church really needs it. All you have to do is watch were your speaker placement is and be careful. I rarly have any feed back any more, because I place my speakers far enough out as to not be effected by them. So do I like the Sabine? YES Do I use it? No. Good luck and God Bless.

Robert Jones
www. Oh I keep forgetting I can't do this any more!!!

The Sabine is basically a series of parametric equalizers, a certain number of which are set during the setup automatically each time you use it in a new building/configuration to be fixed to the places where feedback is prone to happen in that room/system combination (just like setting any other EQ, but it's automated), and then the rest remain dynamic, clamping down on the first sign of feedback before it becomes audible.

While they do work when set properly, they're not always the best solution. In your situation, however, if you learn to properly set it up it may be helpful. I tend to stay away from them, but then again, it's my job to tune systems, and I've got the tools, knowlege, and experience to EQ a system proplerly, something that takes a lot of practice and experience to learn to do well.

And no, speaker placement alone can't always help. It certainly is of utmost importance, but there will be times where no matter what you do, the room is just going to be resonant at certain frequencies and want to feedback no matter what you do, or at least sound crummy.

And that's where the problem with a feedback eliminator lies; it doesn't equalize for a good sound, it just eliminates feedback. You can have frequencies build up that will make the sound bad, but won't build to the point of feedback. Properly tuning a system will make it sound good, and not feed back; using the Sabine or a similar device will just keep it from feeding back.

Hope that helps,
Andy

Thanks Andy. What would you suggest for my situation? Usually I am either in a good house w/good sound & tech or have my own 900 watt portable system w/separate EQ. Occasionally I am flying and have no control of house sound and there is not a qualified tech. at the venue. Would you suggst something besides the Sabine? Is there a portable EQ that I could travel with and patch between my wireless and the amp? Obviously the biggest concern is when I am using an omni lavalier. My E-6 is a cardioid.
Lou

Hi

AS Andy has said feedback eliminators will just quench any feedback and can make a dramatic effect to your sound quality.

They are primarily designed for installs.

Can YOU not do a full eq to the rooms before your performance?

Paula

It really depends on budget range, although odds are good you'll want at least two channels, even though you shouldn't be running in stereo (which is a whole 'nother topic), so you'll be looking at a 2U unit rather than the 2400's 1U (ie, it'll be twice as tall). In the analog realm, Rane's are pretty common from the low budget category. I don't love them, but I can live with them when I have to (I've had issues with them on occasion in the past, but I'm touring a rack of them now on Sesame Street, and have had no problems). Klark Teknik's DN360 is pretty much an industry standard, but more pricey than a Rane.

In the digital realm, I've used Sabine's Graphi-Q, which combines a digital EQ with analog style controls with an FBX that is also directly programmable as a parametric EQ, a compressor/limiter, and a digital delay. They're great little boxes, and sound pretty decent. Rane also has a digital EQ I haven't had the chance to play with, as does Klark Teknik.

While there is a feedback difference between an omni and a cardioid, there's no difference when we're talking EQing for a good and consistent sound. You could just be plugging in a CD player, and it'd still matter.

Hope this helps,
Andy, currently doing sound for "Elmo's Coloring Book" in Dayton, OH

I would look at a compressor as well to help overall vocal sound. It should help, but ultimately EQ'ing the room during soiund check would be best.

Kevin

Thanks for all of the input. Please read my post again. I am specifically talking about situations where I cannot EQ the whole room and don't have a tech. person or good house system. I need portability for those situations. Would a compressor and a Sabine Graphi-Q be relatively portable and easy to use? I am a relatively non-tech. guy myself.
Lou

Sorry, It seems you posts said you did not HAVE an EQ.
The recommendations for getting and carrying an EQ is the BEST answer. A compressor will help as well.
I believe you want maximum gain before feedback, that is where a compressor will help as far brining up whispers and cutting down louder noise (layperson terminology).

Also, I would seriously look at your mic placement. You should not be having these kind of problems.

Are you carrying you mic in a small rack?

Kevin

Whilst I can see your problem - can you not EQ on the fly.

My perception is that a full sound check should be done prior to guests arriving and I arrive with sufficient time to do so.

My sound setup is just as an integral part of my act as loading my props before hand.

With this in mind I learnt to set up systems just as I learnt to do a double lift.

Eliminators and compressors do not work "Out of the box" and are used to tweak the sound to a room.

A feedback destroyer "could" be set to catch almost every thing so that you can go into a venu cold but the sound would be so so bad.


Paula

That'd be redundant, since the Graphi-Q comes with a built-in compressor/limiter.

In that situation, you could probably get away with using the EQ to shape the tone of the sound roughly after using the FBX section to tame any feedback frequencies. It's not as good as doing a full EQ tuning and then not needing the FBX section/using it as a parametric EQ, but it's better than nothing.

It'll be as portable as any 2U sized device is. It's not tiny, but it's not super-gigantic, and from what I remember it's not terribly heavy.

Thanks Andy. Is the Sabine Graphi-Q 3102 (2 channel) relatively easy to use for a guy who is barely tech. savy like myself? What sources would you recommend purchasing from?
Lou

I don't know if he carries the Sabine or not, but my general go-to guy for mail order audio gear is Klay Andersen, http://www.klay.com (tell him I sent ya, I don't get anything out of it, but it's always nice). On the occasions I don't order from Klay, I'll use Sweetwater, http://www.sweetwater.com (Klay is a small guy who really knows his stuff and has fair prices, Sweetwater is a large retailer who knows their stuff but feel more "salesman" like, although since they are larger they generally offer deeper discounts).

The nice thing about the 3102 is that while it's digital, it's all got analog style control, so if you know how to use a graphic EQ, you can use it's graphic, and from what I remember the manual is pretty good about explaining the rest of it. A good idea would be to go to Sabine's website and get the PDF of the manual, and then check it out before you buy, this way you can see what you're getting into and see how helpful (or not) the manual will be.

Andy,
Again, I thank you for your generous help and advice. It truly is appreciated!
Lou

Lou,
In my opinion, a compressor is far too abstract for a non-tech person. A graphic EQ is also too difficult for non-techs. I think a feedback exterminator is the right answer for you. It's about as self-working as a self-working card trick. That is to say that, the more you use & understand it, the better it will "self" work. Once you're used to it, though, it will give you another 6-9 dB of gain-before feedback. It's not a total solution, but it's the only available solution for someone who is a non-tech, but who isn't afraid to learn how to "work" a "self-working" device.

Hey, everyone has an opinion!
Cheers!

Further to my preceding post, here's a bit more on "feedback exterminators" (Sabine, Shure and others).

I think that, for a newbie, use of a graphic EQ and/or compressor would be FAR too difficult and too time-consuming on-site. A graphic EQ is difficult to learn PROPERLY and a compressor is even harder. A feddback exterminator is pretty easy, as long as you learn its limits. You SLOWLY turn up the mic, let the PA feed back, and let the exterminator's first "filter" exterminate that first bit of feedback. Then, you tun the mic up a bit more, and another filter on the exterminator will take care of THAT bit of feedback. Do this until all available filters are used up, and then turn the mic down a little. Andy Levis is VERY right that this will not "EQ the room", but it will help with feedback. Keep in mind that feedback is related to distance so as you move around the stage, changing the relative distance between you & the speakers, the feedback frequencies might change, so as you're letting the PA "ring" (feed back) to set the exterminator, you need to wander the stage to find the worst locations you will use in your show.

Bottom line is that a graphic EQ and a compressor are difficult to use correctly, and a feedback exterminator is easy. An exterminator can be used without your having to spend a lot of time, without your having to hear the PA, and without your having to learn much about audio. As I said earlier, it'll buy you 6-9 dB, and while that's not a huge amount, it can bridge the gap between not-loud-enough and ... well ... loud-enough!

The way you described you situation, Lou, as going into some venues with sub-par gear or sub-par techs, the application of an FBX would simply be to make things a little better. The REAL work of EQ'ing a room and compressing a mic would require pre-show work by someone with sufficient skill and sufficient time.

Cheers from Toronto!
Dan.
http://www.MagicRoadie.com
"Taking the mystery out of stage technoogy!"

Thanks Dan for your help and insight.
Lou

For many years, I had trouble trying to eliminate feedback. When I got a hyper-cardoid mike, it made it easy to eliminate feedback, along with correct speaker placement. I had a lot of trouble with unidirectional and cardoid mikes. I use a Sennheiser Evolution 845s and the gain before feedback is excellent.