| Go to page (Previous) 1 ~ 2 ~ 3 ~ 4 ~ 5 ~ 6 (Next) |
|
|
BrainMagos
Loyal user
269 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 1, 2004 9:20pm
Jim thanks for the info.
|
tuffnavyrn
Inner circle
San Diego, CA
1239 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 1, 2004 10:07pm
I say enjoy what RO has given the magic community all these years and be thankful that there are still some gems hidden away.
Brian-
"That smart thing that somebody else said".
|
CSMTREE
Loyal user
El Paso, Texas
243 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 3, 2004 12:54pm
I just wanted to add to the many thanks already given. I dislike some of the threads due to negative comments made. I think if the professionals spend their time and effort to deliver quality material, we should thank them. I guess every profession has its knuckleheads and we are no different. Thanks Richard, Jim, Banachek, Michael, Jeff, Daryl, and all of the other excellent artists that work so hard to improve our art and keep Magic moving forward! KUDOS!!!
|
Greg Owen
Special user
627 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 3, 2004 2:17pm
FWIW, here is a link to some basics on copyright and public domain documents. Corinda and Annemann's work may or may not currently be covered. It would depend on if the copyrights were renewed.
http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm
Also, according to Amazon.com, Annemann's material IS still copywrited.
- Greg Owen
Author of The Alpha Stack ebook - the balanced memorized stack
gobeatty@yahoo.com
|
John LeBlanc
Special user
Houston, TX
523 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 3, 2004 3:39pm
Quote:
|
On 2004-11-03 14:17, Greg Owen wrote:
Also, according to Amazon.com, Annemann's material IS still copywrited.
|
|
"Annemann's material" -- all of it? Every single version of it out there? Is that what Amazon claims? Where?
Just out of curiosity, do you know who actually and currently holds the rights to each of the Annemann works ever produced?
John LeBlanc
Escamoteurettes, my blog.
"One thought fills immensity." -- William Blake
|
David Numen
Inner circle
1194 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 3, 2004 3:52pm
Do any of you guys have any basic knowledge of who did what?
Sadly I don't own it, but I happen to know that Max Abram's mammoth "Annemann, Life and Times of a Legend" was published by L&L and since it conatins Annemann's effects I think it's safe to assume they have copyright. Even, if like me, you don't have the book you should be aware of it's existence!
Regards,
David.
Cellular Forecast - turn your cell phone into a dangerous mentalism weapon!
The Sentir Tear - "I think it's brilliant" Bob Cassidy
NUD - a sneaky utility deck with endless applications
Available exclusively form Lybrary.com
|
ScottLeavitt
Special user
713 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 3, 2004 10:48pm
Enough already! I'm sure if any of the estates are concerned, they will contact Richard. Folks mean well, but I'm sure the estates can look out for themselves should there be issues.
Can't wait to see the work of the masters presented by a current day master! 
|
Greg Owen
Special user
627 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 4, 2004 9:21am
""Annemann's material" -- all of it? Every single version of it out there? Is that what Amazon claims? Where?"
Do a "look inside" of any of the Annemann books on Amazon and the copyright notice is there. My hard copies of the works also have copyrights.
As to the estates of Annemann and Corinda, they may or may not have an interest. The current copyright holder is who has the interest...it may well be the publisher if the rights were sold or otherwise transferred.
FWIW, my father is an author of one of the top 100 most collectable books of all time and he is deceased. His work IS still copyrighted!
- Greg Owen
Author of The Alpha Stack ebook - the balanced memorized stack
gobeatty@yahoo.com
|
John LeBlanc
Special user
Houston, TX
523 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 10, 2004 11:42am
Quote:
|
On 2004-11-04 09:21, Greg Owen wrote:
Do a "look inside" of any of the Annemann books on Amazon and the copyright notice is there. My hard copies of the works also have copyrights.
|
|
A copyright covers a particular version of a work. By default, they are all copyrighted. When a work is sold or transferred, the right to make copies is transferred, but the actual ownership of the work may or may not be included.
There are many magic books that were copyrighted by the original publisher and have been transferred from one publisher to another. Tarbell has gone through several sets of hands. Annemann's work has, too.
Speaking strictly to the legalities of copyright, there are many works that are no longer covered by their original copyrights, but subsequent versions are fully protected. That's why The Learned Pig Project can legally offer so many books that may also have copyrighted versions currently on the market.
Quote:
| FWIW, my father is an author of one of the top 100 most collectable books of all time and he is deceased. His work IS still copyrighted! |
|
As well it should be.
John LeBlanc
Escamoteurettes, my blog.
"One thought fills immensity." -- William Blake
|
Xiqual
Inner circle
Upper left quadrant
2347 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 7:28am
Doesn't copyright refer to the exact wording of the book?
If Richard read from the book to teach the effects on the DVD [Horrors!!!] that would be copyright infringement. We are talking about Richard's interpretation of these classics.
I don't think specific methods are covered in this type of coryright.
Of course I could be wrong.
James
Still with the Chinese circus 
|
Greg Owen
Special user
627 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 9:41am
I'm surprised Mr. Osterlind has gone quiet in this thread.
- Greg Owen
Author of The Alpha Stack ebook - the balanced memorized stack
gobeatty@yahoo.com
|
rickmagic1
Inner circle
Franklin, TN...where the fences have
1294 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 10:54am
I don't think he's gone quiet, I think he's been out performing.
Rick
Rick
|
Richard Osterlind
V.I.P.
1808 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 2:35pm
Thank you Rick, yes I have. I just got back from the airport and I am heading out again tomorrow.
When I read Greg Owen's posts, I, like President Bush, want to scowl! It is hard for me to even dream up a more outlandish claim than he is raising!
I have posted my feelings on these matters repeatedly. Unfortunately, there is always some lunatic who has to write something that goes way over the top causing the whole group of posts to get pulled! I will try again to state my point of view.
With the exception of the Larry Becker material (which he DID give me permission to use long before the shoot) and the Al Mann material (which Al gave me permission to use despite the ramblings of Dorf Sork!) the material on ETMMM is CLASSIC material that has been used time and time again in all manner of books, magazines and videos. One person asked me if I had paid the living relatives for the use of the material!? How many times has Psuedo Psychometry been used over the years? Have all those who have used that principle paid the living relatives of Annemann some kind of compensation? (For the record, L&L Publishing owns the rights to the book Annemann by Max Abrams!) Greg Arse and Federico Luduena have a new book test called The Freestyle Book Test. In the book they credit the peek principle to Paul Curry, Danny Tong and Larry Becker. That’s fine, but did they give the relatives of Paul Curry some type of compensation? Are they going to donate part of the money earned from the sales to some type of fund for the families of deceased magic greats? I should also mention Vincent Dalban and his effect, Mental Numbers. That principle is also used in this book test. Are Arce and Luduena going to send money to his family also? Even though the ideas are used in a slightly different way then the original intent, they are both fully described. So aren’t the living relatives owed some type of restitution?
What about Al Koran’s 5 Star Prediction? How many manufacturers of gaffed wallets have used this idea in their instructions? Did they pay money to Koran’s relatives? What about books like Miracles of My Friends, by Burton Sperber? Did Ray Grismer pay those same relatives to use his idea for Headline Countdown? And what about all the different manufactures who have put out their own versions of The Magic Medallion? I suppose all of Al’s relatives would be living high and mighty if everyone who ever used one of his ideas sent them restitution.
I defy anyone to send me a book or a video where I cannot find the principles used in some classic work! If you were to go by Greg's rules, there would not be one new magic book or video ever produced! And now that you actually HAVE the videos in hand (rather than ranting before you even saw them!) you will see that there is hardly a routine where I have not added a little "something" to make it more workable or easy to do.
I have said this before, all of the above criticisms posted about ETMMM are a Red Herring. There is a group I call the "Mentalism Elite" who do not want this material released. They were once looking in, but now that they are in, they want to keep everyone else out. Even though they got their entry into the art by studying Tarbell, Greater Magic and other magic classics, they now feel that mentalism is no longer a part of magic. To them magicians are second rate citizens who should not have access to their “secrets”! They speak despairingly of "mere" magicians behind their closed doors and secret forums some even forbid their members to post on the Café.
It has come to my attention that someone has slipped behind these closed doors. (I had nothing to do with this and a phone call informed me of this.) Apparently someone has copied the posting of a forum onto alt.magic. The title is “Secret rumblings from the PEA about Osterlind and the url is
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=97Qhd.12722%24OD3.738197%40news20.bellglobal.com&rnum=1
You might want to go there and read how some (but certainly not all) of these members feel about magicians. I have copied one part of a posting (leaving out the name of the poster, of course). Here it is.
"My comments above are strictly related to RO using my ***** method on his video and what I think of him as a person. Releasing our secrets to the whole world is another matter entirely."
Please study that last sentence. Releasing "our secrets" … as though they are not yours, too! Do you suppose they would like to come into your house and confiscate your copies of Corinda and Annemann? Look at the next phrase, "to the world"! Does that tell you something? You are the "world". You are not part of the magic community (of which mentalism is part of regardless of their lies), but are part of the great underclass who do not deserve such secrets. They act as though these videos will be released at Blockbuster instead of the fraternity. This kind of elitism is hideous!
I won't play these games. The "card experts elite" did the same thing to Michael Ammar when he released his Easy To Master videos. The result of those vidoes is there is now a slew of young, fine card workers doing quality magic.
One of the reasons I have come under such great attack is because I have never joined up with this group. I had a flirting membership in a couple, but I quit these organizations for personal reasons. Besides not wanting to belong to an organization that would have such members as Sork, I could not deal with the resentment and belittlement of magic and magicians. You can look at books I have written over 30 years ago and see these same sentiments expressed there. This is no new position with me.
I wish to end by thanking my friend Banachek for his courageous support in spite of the attacks he has also come under for being my friend. Unlike so many other cowards who, to this very day, have never bothered contacting me, he has remained the same friend he always has been and not shifted with the elitist tide.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express my feelings.
Richard Osterlind
|
MisterE21
Elite user
Salt Lake City, UT
426 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 2:46pm
Wow...bravo Richard. Well said with clearn insight. I greatly appreciate hearing your point of view on this and also appreciate the link! I'll be reading...
E
Your EFFECT is only as good as its AFFECT.
|
bevbevvybev
Inner circle
1287 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 2:58pm
Great post
Just change that typo or Greg Arce will be after you!
Laughing..
Bev
Cold Reading & Mentalism ebooks from The Parlour http://imentalism.com/theparlour/
|
rickmagic1
Inner circle
Franklin, TN...where the fences have
1294 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 3:13pm
Richard,
I both applaud you and stand with you on this one. I agree that if it were up to the "elite", they'd be the only ones learning any of this and that would be a sad loss to the rest of the world.
Rick
Rick
|
John LeBlanc
Special user
Houston, TX
523 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 3:18pm
Quote:
|
On 2004-11-16 14:46, MisterE21 wrote:
Wow...bravo Richard. Well said with clearn insight. I greatly appreciate hearing your point of view on this and also appreciate the link! I'll be reading...
E
|
|
Let me add this: while Richard is certainly taking the greatest amount of heat over this, you should also know some of those who support him and this project have had to put up with some of it, too. Insane and pathetic, but true.
The art and craft of mystery entertainment is bettered by good, strong, respectful and loving teaching. Hoarding information from the Great Unwashed (as some members of this association are suggesting) is beneath the dignity of anyone I'd want to associate with.
I've dealt with this subject a number of times on my blog. I suspect there will be continuous chapters added simply because the attitudes of some of these people will not bend or sway, especially when bolstered by their "peers".
John LeBlanc
Escamoteurettes, my blog.
"One thought fills immensity." -- William Blake
|
Greg Owen
Special user
627 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 3:21pm
Richard -
"When I read Greg Owen's posts, I, like President Bush, want to scowl! It is hard for me to even dream up a more outlandish claim than he is raising!"
Just to set the record straight, I am making NO claim. Mearly asking the question. I FULLY EXPECTED, as I wrote in an earlier post in this thread, knowing you as I do (though personal e-mail exchanges), that you would reply that you and L&L knew the deal with this and that there was NO copywrite issue here. After my first post on the topic, you stopped posting in this thread.
The best way to end a rumor is with facts. Thank you for replying with the facts of the matter.
- Greg Owen
Author of The Alpha Stack ebook - the balanced memorized stack
gobeatty@yahoo.com
|
Richard Osterlind
V.I.P.
1808 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 3:24pm
Quote:
|
On 2004-11-16 14:58, bevbevvybev wrote:
Great post
Just change that typo or Greg Arce will be after you!
Laughing..
Bev
|
|
sorry, but my fingers were flying!
|
dr.strange
New user
93 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 3:35pm
Well said Richard,
I just want to add that I had the privilege to have dealings with Richard recently via email. Before this contact he had no idea who I was, I asked for his opinion on a certain matter and he took time out of his busy schedule to go into great detail with me, he is a true gentleman.
History has shown that all revolutions have their genesis in a common hatred of the elite.
thanks
|
Sven Rygh
Inner circle
Oslo, Norway.
1681 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 3:42pm
Quote:
|
On 2004-11-16 14:35, Richard Osterlind
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express my feelings.
|
|
Bravo!!
Well done!
Sven
WWW.SVENRYGH.NO
"Keep it as simple as possible, - but no simpler"
http://www.svenrygh.no/sven-rygh/presse/nrk-forst-og-sist/
http://www.svenrygh.no/video.html
|
mystic1
Veteran user
342 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 10:39pm
Big non-responsive response above.
Questions not directly answered.
Citations misleading (as it is a different thing to be inspired by an original creator and develop your own new material than to present the material in recorded/pubblished form substantially as it was originally developed).
As to criticisms from groups of professional mentalists, using Mark Lewis as a source hardly inspires confidence. Moreover, I'm not sure of the circumstances anyone left those groups under, but I'd bet some former members couldn't get back into those groups now for whatever reason.
Finally, it is an old trick to stoke the fires of division between mentalists and magicians. But here it is being done in a unique way! Now THAT'S creative and ORIGINAL !
|
Harris0n
Loyal user
UK
253 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 17, 2004 5:20am
Quote:
|
On 2004-10-31 10:45, entity wrote:
I can't speak for others, but in my case the questions I asked regarding *making mentalism easy* is much less about elitism than it is about the concern of making Mentalism common.
|
|
If you think this is bad, I just got wind of a book entitled "Self-Working Mental Magic" by a fellow named Karl Fulves.
Mental Magic...Self-Working?!?!?
What's worse, I heard this book will be easily available in high street bookshops all around the world for as little as $7!!
WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!
Seriously though, I do feel that "Easy to Master.." is an ill-chosen title for the series. In my opinion, something along the lines of "Classics of Mentalism" would possibly convey more respect to the material and to the art. I think that many are worried that labelling a set of DVDs as "Easy to Master.." will undoubtedly attract the lazy and the those who want an easy ride.
But then, Fulves seems to have got away with it.
|
Richard Osterlind
V.I.P.
1808 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 17, 2004 6:41am
Quote:
|
On 2004-11-16 22:39, mystic1 wrote:
Big non-responsive response above.
Questions not directly answered.
Citations misleading (as it is a different thing to be inspired by an original creator and develop your own new material than to present the material in recorded/pubblished form substantially as it was originally developed).
As to criticisms from groups of professional mentalists, using Mark Lewis as a source hardly inspires confidence. Moreover, I'm not sure of the circumstances anyone left those groups under, but I'd bet some former members couldn't get back into those groups now for whatever reason.
Finally, it is an old trick to stoke the fires of division between mentalists and magicians. But here it is being done in a unique way! Now THAT'S creative and ORIGINAL !
|
|
Why don't you read more closely? I answered each and every question raised to me!
Do you have the DVD's??? As I said, just about everything on there has some sort of personal touch. And what kind of nonsense is it that says is OK to take a standard effect, change it a bit, and use it, but it's not OK to do it as originally shown? Why don't you put down Johnny Thompson or even Dai Vernon for doing Malini just the way he did his material?
Regardless of how that post got there, they ARE the actual posts! Are you trying to deny that?
And finally, I DID NOT START THIS!!!! I am DEFENDING my actions from people like you who have no better way to spend their life than trying to make trouble!
Why don't you come clean and lay out your agenda. Do you have any kind of personal interest in these matters? Do you have the DVD's and do you know what you are talking about?
As I said in a previous post, just because you have a keyboard in front of you, does not mean you are not responsible for your words!
Richard
PS And those groups wanted VERY MUCH for me to get back in!
|
123majik123
Regular user
nowhere
180 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 17, 2004 6:57am
Are there any reviews of the DVDs out yet???
apyamdb@nottingham.ac.uk
|
Millard123
Regular user
Millard Longman
162 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 17, 2004 8:35am
Here is one of my own posts that is mysteriously missing from the Mark Lewis post on alt.magic:
************************************************************
"Richard Osterlind contacted me today and asked if he and I were still OK regarding his first DVD set (Richard Osterlind's Mind Mysteries - Copyright 2003) and his use of Acidus Novus on that set. I told him that we were still OK and then he said that he had heard rumors of my unhappiness over the matter. I told him that I would make this post to clear the air of rumors.
I have previously posted that I am OK with Richard and that I think he is one of the good guys! I have specifically recounted Richard’s very nice treatment of me before he released his first DVD set and realized that he had not credited me for Acidus Novus.
In the past, many authors have used my billet methods with no regard for my feelings; Richard was the first to care enough about me to call and I am still very impressed with him.
I sincerely hope that this post makes it clear to all that I like and respect Richard."
************************************************************
I am posting this here for the same reason that I posted it elsewhere – this is how I feel about Richard Osterlind and I want the magic community to know that this is how I feel!
I have yet to see Richard’s new DVDs, but I feel that they will reflect his very high standards for content and performance.
Millard
Millard Longman
See all my products at:
www.mevproshop.com
|
John Nesbit
Inner circle
1179 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 17, 2004 8:47am
Why not put this whole issue into the perspectictive of the Fine Arts World ? Does learning how to paint like the Great Masters from another artist, who has learned from another artist, "infringe" or violate ethical practices somehwere in the art world ? Only duplicating a painting (good luck)and forging, or signing someone elses name, like Rembrandt, and trying to market that as "his" original would constitute real "fraud". (See the film "Incognito" Rod Steiger and Jason Patrick).
Using the great classics of art and music, to learn from and to teach others the way, is what has been done for centuries. Art schools and universities have been teaching people how to paint, and, art appreciation for just as long. Does "everyone" around now know how to paint or even draw like a master ? Not even close !
So Richard Osterlind is teaching magicians and mentalists the fine art of what he does so well, and has done for so long .
All the attacks and criticism of Richard are reminiscent of the "old west". Where any "kid" or (in this case), a newcommer. Who see's an opportunity to "distract" someone of Richard's caliber. Uses a forum like this to start "firing away". Without Provocation or, Justification. And too often so very cowardly, "taking aim" at his back . So while it is here, just words from a "keyboard", many of them hide behind the safe "cover" of a pseudo "username". And often, with no (genuine) photo of the "accuser".
It is too easy to see who the "Frauds" are in this forum. They are those who presume to challenge. And those who continue to "take cheap shots" at. A true professional whom they, could never come close to touching the talents, acheivements and intergrity of, Richard Osterlind.
|
johne
Special user
910 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 17, 2004 9:25am
Quote:
|
On 2004-11-17 08:47, johnjnesbit wrote:
Does "everyone" around now know how to paint or even draw like a master ? Not even close !
|
|
I know of at least "one" that is achieved that "master" painter level.
John Eddington
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away
|
magicinsight
Inner circle
1899 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 17, 2004 9:29am
No matter how hard I try I always end up with more paint on my head and clothes than on the walls. There is a lesson for all of us in this.
“Belief matters more than truth. Every moment, belief in imaginary things alters lives while truth sits unnoticed and waits.”
—Hakim, Loreweaver
|
pierredan
Loyal user
Dai Vernon's birthplace
286 Posts
|
Posted: Nov 17, 2004 9:30am
Dear Richard Osterlind,
Please stop defending yourself. Nothing you say will satisfy your critics. You should rise above this petty criticism and continue doing what you do best.
Michael Ammar will always be remembered as a great magician and teacher of magic. So will you. As for the other mentalist “elite”… well, maybe they will get a mention in The Encyclopedia of Magicians if anyone still remembers them.
This thread has made one thing clear for me; I waste too much time reading about mentalism instead of learning and practicing mentalism.
|
| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Osterlind ETMMM Breakdown |
|
|
| Go to page (Previous) 1 ~ 2 ~ 3 ~ 4 ~ 5 ~ 6 (Next) |
![[4]](/forums/images/digits/4.gif)
![[6]](/forums/images/digits/6.gif)
![[3]](/forums/images/digits/3.gif)
![[8]](/forums/images/digits/8.gif)
![[7]](/forums/images/digits/7.gif)
![[0]](/forums/images/digits/0.gif)
![[2]](/forums/images/digits/2.gif)