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trainspotter
New user
63 Posts
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Posted: Nov 7, 2004 10:23am
Hello everybody,
I was wondering about the use of NLP in mentalism.
When I first learned about NLP, I saw nothing innovative. All the "working" principles were taken from good old classical psychology, and for all the "non-working" principals, no scientific evidence was shown to support the theory.
I wanted to hear your ideas on implementing the principles of NLP to mentalism. Are you using it to gain rapport? to influence? Or to force a choice?
Any thoughts on the subject are appreciated.
Sorry for my English. And thanks for sharing your ideas.
Danny.
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123majik123
Regular user
nowhere
180 Posts
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Posted: Nov 7, 2004 10:57am
NLP is usually used to enhance magical presentations. But then not just NLP techniques are used. Kenton Knepper's Wonder Words says a lot about this drawing from all areas of linguistic physiology. (There are a few NLP style effects in print which make use of eye access cues).
apyamdb@nottingham.ac.uk
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trainspotter
New user
63 Posts
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Posted: Nov 7, 2004 12:03pm
123majik123, can you please refer me to specific effect using the eye access cues, and their authors?
Thanks!
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Hypnotic Winter
Special user
Ireland
722 Posts
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Posted: Nov 7, 2004 12:08pm
Trainspotter, try running a search if you haven't already.
I've already spoken on this on other threads.
H.W
When your only reality is an illusion, then illusion is reality.
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xersekis
Special user
591 Posts
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Posted: Nov 8, 2004 11:40am
Well not quite, trainspotter.
Much of NLP does come from other very valuable fields and endeavors - synthesized tried and true approaches. However, NLP has innovated much that has been synthesized back into these tried and true fields and in other areas.
NLP represents a working blend of some of the finest behavioral and cognitive approaches and has contributed back greatly to the field of psychology, psychiatry, medicine, education, sports, marketing, sales and advertising, social programs, the military, law enforcement and much more.
I personally have trained people from all around the world, top CEO's neuro-psychiatrists, hostage negotiators, trial attorneys, politicians, parents, educators, police etc. all of which utilize NLP in their daily or professional life and who do find it incredibly valuable.
NLP is like a library where all the good books are so you don't have to search very far to find stuff that works and works well.
BUT it has suffered at the hands of those who borrow from it without credit. True NLP has done some of that too but from early days on much was done to track what and where the "Roots of NLP" came from.
Enjoy!
Rex
http://www.idea-seminars.com
Master Trainer of NLP
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Ken Dyne
Inner circle
1815 Posts
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Posted: Nov 8, 2004 6:40pm
I use NLP as a format for life as well as a backup for my work. I consider it one of the many layers which make up both me and my acts, whether it be on stage or close up.
Kind thoughts,
Kennedy
After Dinner Entertainer and Corporate Events Entertainers: http://www.mindofkennedy.co.uk
Complimentary Resource: Mentalists Inner Circle blog, online right now http://mentalistblog.blogspot.com/
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lawrencetreagus
New user
61 Posts
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Posted: Nov 8, 2004 7:14pm
There is a post on eye accessing clues discussing the effectivenes of this part of NLP.
It's in "NLP books and ANCHORING". the link makes interesting reading.
regards
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trainspotter
New user
63 Posts
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Posted: Nov 9, 2004 3:56am
Rex, thank you for your answer.
I'm interested in how exacly NLP contributed greatly to the field of psychology, psychiatry, medicine
Back to the original question,
How exacly you apply NLP principles in mentalism.
Thanks again 
Lawrencetreagus, I've posted the link
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Marco S.
Inner circle
1018 Posts
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Posted: Nov 9, 2004 6:58am
I heard Derren Brown uses NLP knowledge that he has quite often. So there you have it.
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lawrencetreagus
New user
61 Posts
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Posted: Nov 9, 2004 7:53am
Sorry just realised it was you (trainspotter)who posted EAC link.
Since your asking for info on EAC how effective do you find it?
"how exactly do you apply NLP in mentalism"
Luke Jermay is probably the best exapmle of NLP in mentalism allthough KK has a lot as well.
regards
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trainspotter
New user
63 Posts
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Posted: Nov 9, 2004 9:24am
Personaly I failed to find any kind of connection between the moves of the eyes and the representation in mind. The article strengthened that belief(http://www.kevinhogan.com/NLPeyeaccess.htm).
I heard that there are some effects that use the EAC principle. I'll appreciate if anyone can refer me to specific effect and it's author.
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Karswell
Regular user
156 Posts
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Posted: Nov 9, 2004 10:57am
There's one in Deadly Mentalism by Ben Rayot: 'Eye Can See What You Are Thinking'. He does mention calibrating to the individual, if memory serves. Mr Brown also goes through EAC - there are others too.
Even Bandler has long since distanced himself from EAC emphasising these are modelling projects not science principles.
The problem is compounded by having the vast majority of NLP presentations and publications just regurgitating and repeating information like extended chinese whispers. The real innovators and investigators from the field are few and far between - Mr Sikes is one.
Nick.
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trainspotter
New user
63 Posts
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Posted: Nov 9, 2004 11:16am
Nick, thank you for your reply.
I'll check those out.
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JoaoPedro
Regular user
Lisbon - Portugal
179 Posts
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Posted: Nov 15, 2004 5:16pm
What an interesting post! Since I discovered NLP and its applications to mentalism, I've been using it every day I perform.
Luke Jermay and Kenton Knepper are the main sources for my work. However, I must say I first became interested after seeing Derren Brown doing a mental force to the 3 diamonds (in his website). Amazing! I just couldn't believe it!
Now I use my NLP skills (still poor but getting better each day) mainly to force a thought! And man it really works! You just have to say the right words using the right body language. You must appear pretty confident and really believe in what you're doing!It is really amazing to see how people get influenced and think of the card YOU WANT!
But I'm not an expert on the subject... I'd like to hear some more voices...
BTW, it's really pleasant to have the presence of such a reference in NLP - Rex Steven Sikes! For me, it all started with your book "Ultimate Home Study Course on NLP". Thanks a lot!
João Pedro
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xersekis
Special user
591 Posts
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Posted: Dec 1, 2004 11:08pm
Kenton and Luke utilize some NLP, as does Derren. There is so much more out there to be learned, used and demonstrated. Just the tip of the iceberg has been noticed by these fine gentleman, so if you are interested I suggest you look into it.
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CarlD
Regular user
111 Posts
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Posted: Dec 2, 2004 7:33am
"Talking about NLP, I just got a pre-release version of a new book called 'Sleight of Mind'. I haven't heard of the authors, but I wish I'd been able to lay my hands on it for info on NLP years ago. I could have saved myself a small fortune. I'm only about halfway through it, but so far it's excellent. I suppose if there's any kind of continuing theme it's suggestion and how to use it, from the viewpoints of both NLP and hypnosis. Quite a few nice routines thrown in there too.
I'm not one for recommending books, as a lot of them tend to be over-priced and lacking in decent content, but I'm really enjoying reading this one. Well worth a look when it comes out.
Is anyone else here a journalist and has a copy they've had a chance to read? I'd be interested to hear other comments on it.
I'll get back to you once I've finished it, with criticisms and a proper overview. Take a look at http://www.sleightofmind.info in the meantime.
CarlD
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bobser
Inner circle
3060 Posts
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Posted: Dec 2, 2004 12:11pm
Quote:
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On 2004-11-09 06:58, Marco S. wrote:
I heard Derren Brown uses NLP knowledge that he has quite often. So there you have it.
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I heard Derren Brown 'doesn't' use NLP knowledge, so there you have it.
The point I am making is that Derren is a magician/mentalist, and EVERYTHING he uses is done through magic/mentalist form.
based in UK. pro magician/mentalist & hypnotist.
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Ominous
New user
12 Posts
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Posted: Dec 2, 2004 12:49pm
Bobser, I am unsure of your point! That DB uses both NLP and just about anything else in the book (any) to get the message across? If so I agree!
CarlD, Thanks for the heads up. That book looks rather interesting!
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xersekis
Special user
591 Posts
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Posted: Dec 2, 2004 3:20pm
Bobser, you believe everything you hear?
Derren has utilized NLP in performance and in patter - having taught it for 25 years I recognize verbatim the patter for hypnotic transcripts we taught. Also he did attend programs.
The degree to which he uses what in his performances and his methods is another matter - but he does very much utilize aspects of NLP.
Some of it - verbatim from what is in books, on tapes and taught in seminars.
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johne
Special user
910 Posts
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Posted: Dec 2, 2004 3:25pm
Isn't it true though, that people unknowingly use NLP in their daily lives, and they just don't recognize them?
J
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away
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magicinsight
Inner circle
1899 Posts
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Posted: Dec 2, 2004 3:43pm
Yes. It is used both unknowingly as well as intentionally by people in thier daily lives. Words are inherently powerful as they denote specific intentions, ideas and directions as well connoting subtle, underlying meanings. Trained negotiators, attorneys, salesmen and other professions used these techniques long before Knepper ever wrote about them. Words have the power to trigger certain emotions, memories, actions and thoughts in people. Knowing what type of words trigger what type of emotions, actions, etc. and when to use those words are important in being successful in business. The application of using these techniques in mentalism, while helpful and important, is by no means new.
Best regards,
Michael
“Belief matters more than truth. Every moment, belief in imaginary things alters lives while truth sits unnoticed and waits.”
—Hakim, Loreweaver
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bobser
Inner circle
3060 Posts
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Posted: Dec 3, 2004 8:14am
[quote]
On 2004-12-02 12:49, Ominous wrote:
Bobser - I am unsure of your point ! That DB uses both NLP and just about anything else in the book (any) to get the message across ? If so I agree ![end quote]
Sorry Ominous,
My point was that when someone says (quote I used) :"I heard that 'such & such says so & so', so there you are" there is no emperical value in such a statement, since we are talking of hearsay (what someone heard.
My second point was simply a reminder that mentalists' claim of the use of NLP is in the main poppycock.
NLP is a very very soft science. So soft in fact that it is (IMO) far more an art than a science, and even then, there is a certain kudos attached to the claims of its user. Hence I argued that,in the main,all of Derren Brown's material is actually magic effects.(Which I actually mean as a compliment!)
And, if I'm wrong, then I am a truly wonderful 'magician'.
Because I, along with many others no doubt,know how to do every single one of the effects he has ever done on television.
However, as it happens... I don't believe I am. ('wrong' that is. Not not wonderful. ooh err ummm)
Bobser.
based in UK. pro magician/mentalist & hypnotist.
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Alexander Marsh
Inner circle
Suffolk, England
1032 Posts
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Posted: Dec 3, 2004 8:27am
Can we PLEASE STOP refering to 'nlp' as if its a 'thing'. Something you can hold in your hand, see, hear and feel (yes I know what I just said ).
Stop thinking of it like an 'it', its not a deck of cards, a swami, a 'special' clipbored.
Bandler and Grinder studyed some people and wrote down things (techniques etc.) they noticed and came up with names for them. They choose to call this Modeling. They did this so they could teach other people how to do these sorts of things.
Like the first person who wrote down how to do a CT, they wrote it down to teach it to other people.
Eye Cues came about because Bandler and Grinder noticed that when accecing different parts of the brain, people moved there eyes in certen places.
And if any of you have even bothered (and I know many of you have, so I don't mean to offend) to pick up a book written by these guys (Frogs in to Princes, springs to mind) you will know that several times when teaching Eye Cues they say, 'everything we are telling you is a lie. All genralizations are not true. Including that one. patterns such as this one (Eye Cues) are not THE way, its just a 'tool', its usefull.' that's not an exact quote by the way, but that's the gest.
Swami's are not THE way to do a prediction effect, there not even THE way to do secret writting, its just a tool that's usefull. And it is NOT 100% reliable. But as any pro will tell you, you can get to a point, with practice and belif in your-self that it is very neraly perfect (i.e. you can write a hole sentance as if it were written normally).
Another thing they point out about Eye Cues is that NO its not 100% true 100% of the time but if you belive it is, then it pretty much is. And theres more to Eye Cues than just Remembering/Constructin images, words, feelings and talking to your self.
Sorry for going on I right rant, and sorry to offend anyone who has bothered to pick up a book about this stuff, but Im shoked at magicians who are mentalists, and mentalists out right denile to learn anything new, which isn't even NEW!
Im off to take a chill pill now,
Alex.
Singles of Deck Head & Tel. now avaliable
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bobser
Inner circle
3060 Posts
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Posted: Dec 3, 2004 8:28am
[quote]
On 2004-11-15 17:16, JoaoPedro wrote:
Since I discovered NLP and its applications to mentalism, I've been using it every day I perform.
Luke Jermay and Kenton Knepper are the main sources for my work. [end quote]
I just thought it interesting that Luke Jermay should be 'a main scource' on the work of NLP.
I'm sure that I am correct in saying that it was being used before he was actually born and there are now literally thousands of qualified teachers on NLP giving academic discourses on the subject around the world.
Quite possibly Luke 'is' one of them, I don't know.
But JoaoPedro's comment is an interesting one.
based in UK. pro magician/mentalist & hypnotist.
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xersekis
Special user
591 Posts
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Posted: Dec 3, 2004 11:33am
I won't discuss here again the erroneous misrepresentations made about NLP and science etc.
And yes many performers utilize it as a rationale when in fact they know nothing of it.
And yes words have been in use prior to NLP.
However, the combination of NLP categories and distinctions purposefully applied to an endeavor - therapy, persuasion, performing etc. has only been around for about 30 years. The systematic use of patterns as notated in NLP but widely disseminated as NLP and a whole host of other things has proven successful for businesses and individuals worldwide for that same time period.
Kenton did not invent - nor did Luke invent NLP or the patterns but they applied them to a field you and I enjoy. Their work utilizes some NLP to help make your work more effective, and easier.
Prior to Kenton applying NLP there was no systematic description of these patterns in our fields.
Words, yes. Ideas, notions, principles yes.
Hypnosis has been a round forever - Milton Erickson perhaps the most widely respected hypnotist used words in a particular fashion to get results. Was he 100% successful - my own view is OF COURSE NOT. But he does have a very impeccable track record. As does Virginia Satir a renown family therapist whose work has gotten results worldwide. Only two of the original models that NLP originators studied and codified to make up this useful body of knowledge.
Since that time this study has included other highly successful individuals in business, sales, intelligence, health, psychology, medicine and many other fields. NLP is a study of codifying the effective things successful individuals do - so that you can learn to do what works.
Yes words are very effective - but even more effective when one knows how and when and where to use them, place them, emphasize and de-emphazise them. When one knows how to create a story or a patter where another person experiences what the storyteller wants them to experience and does what the story teller wants them to do.
It is about focusing attention, directing it and getting results - and linguistics - is only the middle name of NLP.
And yes people have used words for great results forever. NLP just simplifies it so that we all can.
Don't study it if you don't wish to. BUT I can guarantee you that the patterns codified can bring understanding about what you naturally do anyway.
You don't have to enjoy it for it to be applied to you by someone else savvy enough to do so.
Don't use it - and for gawd sakes don't claim to if you don't really understand and utilize it.
Kenton, Luke and Derren have demonstrated what is possible utilizing NLP as well as other things.
BUT elements of NLP is one of the things they all have utilized in common.
You don't have to know all about NLP to do what performers do. I think that is Derren's point - there are other things that get you your performance miracles - BUT you may use NLP for your patter, direction thoughts, the hypnotic stuff DB does is directly taken from NLP transcripts nearly verbatim - the handshake interrupt. The amnesia patterns etc. He didn't get that from a vacuums - it is stuff I have used and taught for 3 decades. He merely brought it to yours and the public's attention.
Don't confuse NLP with certain methods - that's not what anyone is actually talking about - which is what frequently gets confused here - from usually well intending misinformed people. If ignorance and loud mouths could be bottled together and sold we would have a fortune right here.
NLP isn't necessarily about achieving the answer to a thought of word or design - although....
it is more about directing attention, suggestion what you want to occur and using very reliable influential patterns to get people to think, act and behave in particular pre -determined ways.
It is also extremely useful for determining how someone thinks, acts, behaves and how they are likely to in the future - predicting for example if someone would play the lottery but not if they would win the lottery.
2 very different notions of what it is useful for - that the ignorant uniformed unfortunately mix up and confuse on this forum. But that is the nature of the uninformed. The inexperienced.
Some people may have begun to study NLP and for whatever reason decide not to invest further time in it. Heck people change majors in university all the time. It is a study - not a thing, not a pill, not a magic bullet and people get into things for a variety of reasons (non of which they necessarily share with us) and out of something because their reasons, goals or wishes don't match what is being offered by whoever is offering it.
But some - a few - then dismiss the whole field because the offering didn't fit with their preconceived notions. Shouldn't blame the all enchiladas because you didn't like the one bite of one you had once. But that's what some people do.
And they are usually the loudest.
I tend to ignore the really loud complainers. AND the cynics. I prefer a much more reasonable and balanced approach to things. I prefer my own experience to the assertions of others - especially if it is possible that there is something beneficial there for me.
But that's just me.
--
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A.G.
Special user
Vancouver Canada
727 Posts
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Posted: Dec 3, 2004 11:46am
Thanks for that post rex.
gerard
www.allandrew.com
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mindracing
New user
6 Posts
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Posted: Dec 7, 2004 7:41am
In my experience EAC are 100% accurate.
What is often missing is the experience and broader unerstanding of the subject.
We all have a Primary Representational System and Lead Representational System. When these are understood and sufficient calibration of the subject is made then the EAC are accurate. Not taking these into account ofen leads to mis-reading.
With experience, calibration can be achieved with a couple of questions in normal conversation.
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trainspotter
New user
63 Posts
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Posted: Dec 7, 2004 8:23am
Mindracing, studies show that it's far from 100% accurate (http://www.kevinhogan.com/NLPeyeaccess.htm).
reminds me of some women that once told me that the reading she got from the fortune teller was 100% accurate.
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xersekis
Special user
591 Posts
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Posted: Dec 7, 2004 12:23pm
I wouldn't put my faith in the hogan study either - and I have known hogan for perhaps a decade or more. he contacted me many years ago about writing together - but I was not inclined. He has made a name for himself - I am not a fan of his works - but to his credit he is prolific.
Another faset however - you are delaing with people and behavoirs and few things with people are 100%. Most things in medicine are 100%, in psychology, in behavior in atheletic performance.
If you are looking for 100% perfection wel then you will always miss. Polygraph isn't 100% it is interpretive - an art - based on real physiologic measures. But not allowed in court because it CAN be wrong. Doesn't mean it is - but you don't want to convict some one on a technical or interpretive error - yet it is done all the time within the judicial system.
Few things regarding people in science give us 100% certainty. Wanting that is simply ridiculous.
What you get with eye accessing cues - or polygraph etc. is a way of upping your batting average. A way of enhancing your performacne. A way of being way closer to correct more often than in error. Of course it depends how good you are with it. If you are really good yuou can get some really good realiable results most of the time - if you aren't very good well then it could be a crap shoot. But in performacne - just like an atheletic - you can optimize your performance to be in the zone far more often than not. You can perform reliably more often. And sure you will have off days or be dead wrong, or have any toher variety of influences that would allow for error.
Find a marksman that hits the center of the bullseye 100% of the time without fail. I mean come on.... no get real.
Usually people who lack talent in an area are the first to critize the loudest - and by gosh the longest.
No one would even begin to claim 100% results in a study or endeavor that utilized humans as it's operatives.
reminds me of someone sitting on the porch all alone at 90 yelling at the kids to get the ball out of the year...If I can't play NO ONE should.
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bobser
Inner circle
3060 Posts
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Posted: Dec 7, 2004 3:40pm
I'm with trainspotter.
I've known quite a few 'experts' in the field of NLP over the years, and at the end of the day I'd have to say they couldn't hold a patch to a good salesman with suggestability skills (who'd never even heard of NLP)
And as far as reading people goes.... well, I'm afraid they're strike rate doesn't seem to be any better than the guy on 'the corner of life' who possesses a 'good gut feeling'.
based in UK. pro magician/mentalist & hypnotist.
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