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zur Special user California 671 Posts |
Yes McDonalds Ace's is taught on ETMCM but somehow I don't like the handling of it. It will probably take some thinking to tweak it a bit. Back to this post topic, hopefully there will be a member that will have some information to share.
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Phil Thomas Inner circle Newark, Ohio 1117 Posts |
I read somewhere that this is "A Dream of Aces" by Gary Oulette. Before he died, he worked with Copperfield on this routine. This is where DC got this routine from. He did change it a little for the vanishes and all, but besides that, it is the exact same trick. Oulette personally taught this to David. I'm sure Chris Kenner had a hand in it as well, but Oulette is the man responsible. The guy even used to produce his TV specials as well as many others.
"If we lose the sense of the mysterious, life is no more than a snuffed out candle."
Albert Einstein |
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dsilverfield Special user 752 Posts |
Alain choquette supposedly used Dream of Aces to command a standing ovation from a few thousand audience and this is mentioned on the ad for Dream of aces at the Camirand site.
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SeanJohn New user Finland 52 Posts |
How about this:
http://hocus-pocus.com/magicshop/product......tem=5432 A Dream of Aces DVD by Gary Ouellet In mid 1992, Gary Ouellet taught his handling for “MacDonald’s Aces” to Alain Choquette, so that Alain could use the routine to close his fifth successful television season. One week later, Alain also performed it in the middle of his live stage show, before a crowd of 1000 spectators, using a hand-held television camera and a large projection screen. At the climax of the routine, 1000 spectators rose to their feet and gave Alain a standing ovation - in the middle of his performance - after a card trick! Soon after, David Copperfield adopted the routine, then adapted it for his 15th CBS special! The effect follows along classical lines: The magician cuts a deck of cards and produces the four aces. Each ace is then covered with three indifferent cards. Three of the aces vanish from their piles and reappear together in one pile. What makes this version different? It will not require months of practice. The handling is economical, deceptive and pleasing to the eye. The presentation offers a beautiful emotional hook. And finally, it is quite simply exquisite magic! This is the most elegant approach ever to one of the world’s greatest card tricks! You are supplied with a 42 page booklet, lavishly photo-illustrated in the Masters of Magic tradition, plus a DVD companion video showing Gary performing the routine, followed by an Alain Choquette performance. Also included are the required cards, which have been manufactured to our specifications on poker-size U.S. Playing Card stock. |
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knmagic Elite user 436 Posts |
I bought the "Classical Aces" from Magic Smith. It's similar to the DC style but I must say DC handling looks so perfect because the use of TV. It's not practical in real life.
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RealDeal JU Veteran user New Jersey 375 Posts |
Dream of Aces
Aces in their faces Of the two, which is the better effect? There is a deffinate price difference in the two and I'm most likely going for Dream of Aces unless Aces in their faces has something better to offer. Please let me know what you think of the two. Thanks for all the help so far everyone. Jim
"Challenge yourself to come up with your own
material, rather than buying into the idea that you have to do the same thing that everyone else is doing to be a good magician." |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
I'll confuse you. If you want a gaffed version that rocks, Hamman's Final Aces (Alex Elmsley's Atomic Aces is the same). Actually, Dream of Aces and Aces in Faces and the Hamman ones should ALL BE BOUGHT AND STUDIED if you are a serious card trickster.
Then also learn one with no gimmicks to round out your skills.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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David Nelson Elite user San Mateo, CA 404 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-01-08 15:08, knmagic wrote: Just out of curiousity, how does Classical Aces differ from the David Copperfield handling? Dave |
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The Mirror Images Inner circle Michigan/USA 1980 Posts |
Also. If it is not practical and only used for TV. Then why is it in his tour. I saw it live. I never watched the screen. I watched him. It was identical to what I saw on tv but in person.
Michael
Steven and Michael, The Mirror Images
The MOST Identical Twin Illusionist http://www.themirrorimages.com Check out our latest new effect - Liquid Steel NEW - MotoBox NEW - MotoMation NEW - Voyager |
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Bobby Forbes Inner circle virginia beach, VA. 1569 Posts |
I'm wondering the same thing as The Mirror Image is.
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MagicPresident Regular user 145 Posts |
I own GRANDFATHER'S ACES. Actually, 2 copies and I can't remember where I bought
them. You might do a GOOGLE search or find them on EBAY. The similarity to DC's performance is that when the aces disappear, there are only 3 cards left, which makes sense if they are supposedly moving to the target packet. Other versions usually involve cards vanishing/becoming another card. Tape is not involved !
MAGIC HAPPENS !
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JarrodHenry Regular user 133 Posts |
I agree.
DC was doing this before Penguin came out with "Shotgun Aces" (Which I've seen elsewhere predating Penguin) and Oz's Ultimate Ace Assembly. I REALLY don't think DC was using doublesided tape. |
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Simon Tan New user Malaysia 55 Posts |
With my experience in ace-assembly rountines, allow me to comment a little on the differences between DC's version with the rest.
DC's version is considered as an ace-assembly rountine. The only difference is that it involves a transposition of the aces from the seperate piles to the leader ace's, while majority of the ace-assembly rountines involves transformation of the aces into indifferent cards. However, regardless if it's transposition or transformation of the aces, it is still basically an ace-assembly rountine, for as we all know, all the aces do assemble together in the end. In his rountine, DC has basically employed several card techniques to accomplish his routine. Basically, here they are (in order of sequence) : 1) False Shuffle/cuts (The cuts and slip cuts he made when the rountine begins) 2) Revelation of Aces (the Pop Up move. After each revelation, and before the next, a quick get-ready for the next ace was done. What's the get-ready? It's just a thumb break. I mentioned this because it was done very nicely and appropriately. Apparently, one can only achieve such elegance from good structuring of the routine.) 3) Secret card addition to leader Ace (a sort of alignment card addition with the top card serving as a cover for the secret addtion of second, third and fourth cards from the top of the deck. The beauty of this addition is that the leader ace was placed off-centered with its right edge hanging out from the right edge of the deck, ie, leader ace is not flushed with the deck, thus making any addition of cards rather impossible. The leader ace was never flushed with the deck from beginning till end. Biddle grip was employed to hide the extra thickness of the added cards from the front. In this sort of condition, I believe only an alignment addition, rather like a side steal, is possible.) 4) The employment of R&S cards. (The back of the last card from the 3 indifferent cards in each pile, and the face of the 3 aces are R****ed). BTW, duplicate aces are used as well. 5)Vanishing of the Aces from the respective piles (A variation of Hamman's Pass is used. If I'm not wrong, it's called the 'Midnight Shift'.) If you are to perform DC's rountine in real life, the ideal condition is to perform it to a small group of audience sitting directly in front of you. It CANNOT be performed surrounded if you are to use DC's method of vanishing the aces. The extra thickness of the leader ace after the secret addition is not really an issue in performance. As long as you have the 3 piles of cards moved slightly towards the audience, and the leader ace's to you, with enough directing of attention from you, and the structure of your rountine, most people will not be aware of the additional cards under the leader ace. I have gathered after performing this rountine, that in order to fully conditioned the audience into believing that there is no cards under the leader ace, one has to perfect the alignment card addition. You need to make sure the leader ace does not stay on top of the deck for too long. So practice till you can loaded the extra cards under the leader ace in not more than 2 seconds. If you panic while adding the cards, it will just be a dead give away. Nothing more you do can save your ass from there on. BTW, anyone knows the name of the music DC used for this routine? Where can I find it? |
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Simon Tan New user Malaysia 55 Posts |
With my experience in ace-assembly rountines, allow me to comment a little on the differences between DC's version with the rest.
DC's version is considered as an ace-assembly rountine. The only difference is that it involves a transposition of the aces from the seperate piles to the leader ace's, while majority of the ace-assembly rountines involves transformation of the aces into indifferent cards. However, regardless if it's transposition or transformation of the aces, it is still basically an ace-assembly rountine, for as we all know, all the aces do assemble together in the end. In his rountine, DC has basically employed several card techniques to accomplish his routine. Basically, here they are (in order of sequence) : 1) False Shuffle/cuts (The cuts and slip cuts he made when the rountine begins) 2) Revelation of Aces (the Pop Up move. After each revelation, and before the next, a quick get-ready for the next ace was done. What's the get-ready? It's just a thumb break. I mentioned this because it was done very nicely and appropriately. Apparently, one can only achieve such elegance from good structuring of the routine.) 3) Secret card addition to leader Ace (a sort of alignment card addition with the top card serving as a cover for the secret addtion of second, third and fourth cards from the top of the deck. The beauty of this addition is that the leader ace was placed off-centered with its right edge hanging out from the right edge of the deck, ie, leader ace is not flushed with the deck, thus making any addition of cards rather impossible. The leader ace was never flushed with the deck from beginning till end. Biddle grip was employed to hide the extra thickness of the added cards from the front. In this sort of condition, I believe only an alignment addition, rather like a side steal, is possible.) 4) The employment of R&S cards. (The back of the last card from the 3 indifferent cards in each pile, and the face of the 3 aces are R****ed). BTW, duplicate aces are used as well. 5)Vanishing of the Aces from the respective piles (A variation of Hamman's Pass is used. If I'm not wrong, it's called the 'Midnight Shift'.) If you are to perform DC's rountine in real life, the ideal condition is to perform it to a small group of audience sitting directly in front of you. It CANNOT be performed surrounded if you are to use DC's method of vanishing the aces. The extra thickness of the leader ace after the secret addition is not really an issue in performance. As long as you have the 3 piles of cards moved slightly towards the audience, and the leader ace's to you, with enough directing of attention from you, and the structure of your rountine, most people will not be aware of the additional cards under the leader ace. I have gathered after performing this rountine, that in order to fully conditioned the audience into believing that there is no cards under the leader ace, one has to perfect the alignment card addition. You need to make sure the leader ace does not stay on top of the deck for too long. So practice till you can loaded the extra cards under the leader ace in not more than 2 seconds. If you panic while adding the cards, it will just be a dead give away. Nothing more you do can save your ass from there on. BTW, anyone knows the name of the music DC used for this routine? Where can I find it? |
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McScratchy Regular user Philadelphia 114 Posts |
The music is from the film "Cousins". You also might want to consider that DC is not adding any cards to the leader ace when he holds it above the deck for a second and then puts it down. Maybe think of another more unorthodox way that the aces could get under that ace of spades. Just a thought!
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respho New user Hong Kong 74 Posts |
In the beginning I was fascinated by DC's aces trick because of the heated debate on the Internet about its method. Also there were magicians accusing DC of cheating to some extent because the trick was done on TV.
Then I purchased DC's DVD called Illusion, the routine was shown there and I was drawn to the idea of making a card trick dramatic by telling a story, using music, elegant movements and excellent camera work. I would like to make a few points clear. During my search of the method and props for this trick, I studied almost every single ace assembly trick available on the market. What has been said in previous threads were all true to a certain extent. I have the exact method and props for the trick. There is a marketed product called "Classical Aces" which teaches you the exact handling with the correct props. The "McDonald Aces" and "A Dream of Aces" were great versions of ace assemblies, but they were not exactly like DC's version. "McDonald Aces" is an ace assembly effect which achieves the illusion using a certain gimmick, which is quite fair and easy to do. "A Dream of Aces" is Gary Oulette's handling of the McDonald Aces. The secret is the same, but he added the idea of telling a story, elegant movements and music. Alain Choquette used his idea in his show and achieved great success. DC took Gary's idea and developed his version of the trick. His version caused a lot of debate for the following reasons... (continued in the next post) |
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respho New user Hong Kong 74 Posts |
In DC's Illusion DVD David said that he's done this trick close to 1000 times live, and he added some of the more difficult moves in his later performances. I suppose the reason for so much bebate was that the magicians who saw him do it could not agree on what they saw and what DC did! What a great way of confusing magicians!
Second the effect uses unconventional methods. The gimmick for vanishing the aces was unusual. And I suspect DC used manipulation cards (thin cards) that were hidden under the leader ace, which gives it a thin appearance (though it was 4 cards) Thirdly the trick was very difficult to do (the vahisnes and the pop-out move) and some magicians believed DC did not do it live. But as DC said he's done the trick so many times and some of the moves were added later. Fourthly the trick only works on TV because of very restrictive angles. Also the excellent camera work helped making a simple card trick look dramatic. (the camera moves during the routine) Take note that in all other ace assembly videos available, the camera was locked to one position, which reduced the dramatic effect. Also in his DVD the music and applause sounds were over dubbed which is certainly much cleaner than using a live soundtrack, which is the case of all other ace assembly videos. *** Finally I hope everyone gets a better understanding of this trick after reading this. I would like to save other magicians of time researching and buying the wrong products. Personally, I have the same music that DC used ("The Cousins Theme"). I am doing "A Dream of Aces" in my show because of the restrictions of DC's version. It has a story (yeah I made a slideshow of photos of me and my grandpa), beautiful movements, matching music, and I have a guy holding the camera for me. My next show is on this Sunday. |
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RealDeal JU Veteran user New Jersey 375 Posts |
I have two versions of this trick now.. I first bought Grandfather's Legacy which is IMO the same version that DC did(or close enough to it). This version is difficult and takes much practice to get perfect. It is very angely and must be done to a small audience. I also have A Dream of Aces and personaly like it better. It is easier to do and can be done a lot smoother than Grandfather's Legacy. The vanishes/transformations look a lot better and there is a touch of class to A Dream of Aces. I enjoy it much more.
Jim
"Challenge yourself to come up with your own
material, rather than buying into the idea that you have to do the same thing that everyone else is doing to be a good magician." |
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Simon Tan New user Malaysia 55 Posts |
You see, there is quite a number of possibilities as to how the aces has gotten under the leader ace, McScratchy. Let me tell you two of these possibilities. As you so rightly put, the card was placed onto the deck for less than a second. But have you stopped and think for a second why is the card being placed onto the deck in the first place if no loading of extra cards is to taken place? Remember, the leader ace was placed right-angled somewhere in the deck before DC took it out. If there's no loading, he would naturally placed in on the table straight away. Why would he placed in back on top of the deck, and THEN placed it onto the table? There is no economy of motion at all. Just doesn't make sense to me. What do you do if you wanna have a coin in your right hand? Do you take the coin with the right hand, or do you take the coin in your left hand and place it into your right? Im sure you know what I mean. We magicians have the inevitable habit of doing things in the most inefficient way when a sleight or a move is to happen, and suddenly becomes normal again when a move is not required. DC is just a mortal, analysing what he does can tell us how he accomplished what he accomplished. Furthermore, if you have the Illusion DVD, watch the segment where the leader ace was on top of the deck for a brief moment, and you can tell there is a load as there is a pause before the leader ace LEAVES the deck, indicating an addition/squaring of cards. A quick and nicely done load I must add. We cannot justify the occurance of a move by the amount of time elapsed. Time is a very poor indication. Our eyes are always quicker that the hands. Michael Ammar once said, show him a man who can do a perfect pass, and he could tell EXACTLY when the pass is done with the corner of his eyes. So never underestimate the eyes, thinking that we can fool them with speed. Therefore in order to cheat/mislead the eyes, the move must take place under the pretence of a natural movement. I don't care how fast your fingers/actions are, but if one is to do a move in an ackward, or unnatural movement/way, even for a split second, our eyes would register it, because it is something the eyes have not seen before, therefore is deemed strange and unnatural. I guess DC must have done the load so well and so natuarally that had you thinking there is no load. Well done to him then. Have we not seen what many of our fellow magicians can accomplish in an offbeat moment, whether it's a second or even a nanosecond? Naturalness and a well chorographed routine can just do that I suppose. So we cannot rule the possibiliy of a load quite just yet. The loaded aces may be as respho said, manipulation cards that are much thinner that normal cards. But regardless of that, it is almost impossible to tell if there is any card under the leader ace due to the angle of the camera. The camera stayed on the leader ace only for a fraction of a second when it was placed onto the table. So how can anyone say for sure there is no card under it? We can only deduce backwards that since the aces appeared under the leader ace in the end, that naturally a load must have taken place some time when the leader ace is placed onto the table. Logic tells us that the most convenient and most obvious moment for the load would be when the leader ace was placed briefly onto the deck. Analysing the routine have me concluded that there is never a possible moment of adding the cards by other means of sleight of hand. It is from this reasoning that I tried experimenting with the alignment addition I had mentioned in my previous post, and with the right timing and naturalness, one can secretly load cards under the leader ace. It is rather similar to a cover pass to a certain extent, because the top card of the deck is used as a cover to hide the load, ie, it stays flushed to the deck. With the right hand holding the leader ace in biddle grip, fingers covering the front edge of the leader ace, one cannot possibly discern the actualy thickness of the card(s).
Another possibility of how the actual routine has been accomplished is by using camera tricks. I once heard from a dealer that the shots the audience saw from the big screen is pre-recorded. The cameraman was just a show, and what we are seeing from the screen is not what DC is actually performing live. It's like lip-syn for singers. The cameraman will time his movement to the music, so that his action would correspond to the movement of the shots on the screen. Think about this, if DC is to perform this routine over a 1000 times, what is the chances of him making a mistake in one of those performances? The chance is very very high. But with a pre-record footage, that can never happen. The audience has no way to see what is actually going on on the stage, because the stage is elevated and so far away, and therefore they can only deduced from the environment (synchronised movements of DC and the cameraman) that what they are seeing from the screen is what is actually happening on the stage. We know for a fact that DC is famous for using stooges. His routines are so mesmerising because no one can perform them in real life conditions. Camera is the sole reason why this is so. Through a camera, our perspective of things are being restricted to a limited area, and therefore our eyes can only process information that are fed into our brains from that tiny area. Therefore, we are most easily misled or confused by what we see from the TV. Remember David Blaine with his 2-foot levitation off the ground?? Come on, I mean, if that's no a camera trick, then WHAT IS THAT?? Therefore, if the footage that the audience saw from the screen was previously recorded, then we won't have to be bothered how the aces had gotten under the leader ace. What do you think? This is just my 2 cents. |
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the Sponge Inner circle Atlanta 2771 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-02-03 16:56, Simon Tan wrote: your idea of a "camera trick" is quite mind-blowing. (and could be correct as far as I know.) however, these are the elements I would have to think about/know before I would agree. 1. David is a perfectionist, is not afraid of/and is quite good at slight-of-hand, and has (at least) one of the best coaches. 2. since he performed it on one of his specials, I can only guess that he performed "airtight" 1000 times as well. "airtight" couldn't have been "faked" as there was a spectator on stage with him the entire time (airtight requires slights, as does several effects david has done over the years). 3. after constant practice, wouldnt one become a master, and chance of error slim? 4. which would be harder, performing an effect flawlessly every night, or making sure everything matched up with the camera, getting in and out, etc every night? 5. this idea relies on the thought that the IS technically demanding (which we have no proof of). I dunno. but you are correct, this is something that could be possible, he is certainly not afraid of using this method, as he has used it before. s |
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