Although I'm new to the world of magic, I know that this item is both an important and highly anticipated release. The unlimited potential of the Fitch Kohler Professional Holdout System has been discussed a bit before, but the release date was always a mystery. In the very least, this is a good read.

Click Here!

What do you think about the leasing agreement? It's sad that television has pushed the magic world into a corner like this (television and magic should be allies). I'll be sticking to my Card College books and Ammar DVD's (only because I'm a rookie, I wish I was advanced enough for this piece), but I was wondering if any of you veterans out there were going to reserve one of these mind blowing items? I'm very interested in the price, which will be announced in Oct.

I'm not sure about the leasing thing. If I'm going to pay a boat load of money, I would like to think that I own it and can pass it down to my children when I leave the planet.

Can anybody clarify on this leasing thing? I know they compare it to using microsoft software....but do you keep the hardware for life??

They might end up leasing 10 of them, if there's that many dummies out there that will buy into leasing.

Personally, I hope they don't lease a one of them. I hate to think of magic becoming a rental agency.

Jerry
..

You can buy a very nice one that uses CO2 for in and out power.

The book: (I think this is the best deal) Click Here!

I made a couple, too. Two that aren't worth the powder to blow them.....

The other two came out very nicely.

But I never wear long sleeves.

Um... if you read closely it says quote,
"The Fitch-Kohler Professional Holdout System is a valuable commodity that you have paid for. Even though it’s a lease you own, it has value just like a common stock. You can even put it in your will or trust."

That means yes, you can pass it on to your children when you leave the planet.

You guys are getting too flipped out about the Leasing thing. Professionally, over the last seven years I managed a multi-million dollar fleet of leased equipment, so I know a thing or two about leasing.

The way Bob wrote his lease deal is that there is no term on it. No term means that you NEVER have to give it back EVER.

When you buy Windows XP operating system, the license gives you the right to use the operating system on your computer forever. What it does not give you is ownership over the Windows name, source code, etc.

If you pay Bob money for the holdout, you get the holdout and DVDs and the right to use the holdout forEVER. You don't have the right to expose it to the world, or copy it (which apparently would be extremely hard to do in the first place) and manufacture your own to sell in the market.

What you don't buy are the property rights that Bob has, which is the whole concept of the system, the right to manufacture it and sell originals, the right to expose it to the world if he so wished.

This NO TERM lease provides you the ability to own and use the system under restrictions. Those restrictions are placed to protect both Bob's years and years of investment in time and testing, and to protect them from people copying it or exposing it on TV. Leasing it like this gives the Bobs a big legal stick if they ever needed to swing it. Not to mention anyone leasing it has to send in a notorized confidentiality letter, that if you were to break, could land you in a world of legal problems

I think it is pretty ingenious to protect the investment of those who choose to aquire it.

The lease reads like Dave Dee's incessant rantings.
I wonder what their lawyer's advice was regarding a patent.

Marketing. Brilliant marketing.

Thanx Dan!

The "agreement" that folks seem all worked up over is not even on the site: "The confidentiality and license agreement is crystal clear and covers the rules. I won’t make you read it now; you can download the complete document on October 7, 2002."

Why bother commenting on a document you've not even read?

The purpose is simple: there has been a tremendous amount of R & D by Fitch, Kohler, Thomas Wayne, and Joe Porper.

They wish to protect their efforts as fully as possible. What is wrong with that?

I normally despise the concept of leasing items either. "Leasing" is usually employed as a method to sneak around the "fair usage" rights of those purchasing a particular product.

However, this particular "lease" actually protects the buyer by assuring them that it will NOT be exposed without the exposee being held legally accountable. This prevents the secret from popping up in your local library or becoming a top selling item for the tourists at Houdini's.

The way it's been outlined at the site suggests that this has got to be one of the most consumer friendly "lease" agreements out there (unless you're FOX).

Pricing is set for the Fitch Kohler Holdout with 10 basic attachments: $1,795.95 for the lease. That's way outta my league, but I know there's a lot of interest.

Click Here!

The confidentiality and license agreement will be available tomorrow (10/8/02).

KingStardog:

Having seen the Fitch/Kohler Holdout last month, I can tell you that it has nothing to do with the CO-style holdout you're imagining.

I can also tell you that it has been worked out to be flawlessly useful, hence the secrecy, legal maneuverings, and price.

It took several ingenious men years and years to perfect the workings (by overcoming the formerly inherent problems).

And as has been said, the lease protects not only Fitch, et al, but the owner as well.

And Keith: as has been discussed many times at various magic Internet sites, patenting is almost useless in the world of magic. If it was that easy, that's what Bob would have done.

Steve "Not Holding Out Anything" H

Currently, less than two-dozen people - in the world! - have seen the holdout system in all it's glory. At the recent LVMI certain select members of the fraternity were invited to view a complete display and demonstration - after signing a confidentiality agreement, of course. Steve is among a few Café'rs who got to peek behind the veil and I'm pretty sure they all felt the same excitement I felt over a year ago when I first started working on this project.

Is the system expensive? Absolutely. But the fact that there is not ONE "store-bought" component (everything is fabricated from scratch) and the fact that forty-five-plus years of development have gone into the project more than justifies the cost. As a small example, the Fitch coin end (which is the "Holy Grail" for coin workers) needs to be padded, to avoid "talking" when coins hit it. Rather than just glue on some foam rubber, I've machined complex molds to simultaneously cast and bond a catalyzed urethane rubber (think "super ball") material to the surface of the core structure. This is just one tiny example of the quality and depth of thinking that has gone into this project.

I currently use the holdout system for just a few things: a complete vanish of three silver dollars in the middle of my Cylinder & Coins routine, a simple cigarette appearance and vanish routine, and - still a work in progress - a small-ball routine based on a Kohler idea. For these few purposes, during which the "moment" is dramatically changed and during which TRUE magic appears to happen, I would gladly pay a price much higher than that, which is being asked.

Thank God I don't have to; let that be a lesson kids… stay in school

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

I would LOVE to own this holdout, but I think thousands of magicians like myself won't buy it. Not because it's not worth it and I really think the leasing idea is fantastic, it's just tooooo expensive. Can anyone lend be $1,800????

I think I will have to start saving!!!

"Lease without term" is the same as buying it, so what's the worry?
Besides, there is virtually NO WAY to fully protect something like that and the rip-off artists will be out in droves if it takes off.
That kind of money is just too hard for some people to resist.

The recent release of pricing on the Fitch/Kohler Holdout has started me thinking more about where my magic $ are best spent. The Fitch/Kohler incarnation of the venerable Holdout is almost assuredly a "Best in Class” type of item; so, of course, what I really want to do is take out a second mortgage and get my order in. A nagging question, though, is how much the mastery of this item would enhance my ability to entertain and amaze with magic. Difficult question to answer.

A wise professor once told me that, in terms of our ability to make a valuable contribution to society and earn a decent living, the ability to communicate verbally moves us from 0 to 50 on a scale of 0 to 100. The ability to read and write moves us to 80. A high school education moves us forward another 5 points to 85 and a bachelor’s degree adds another whole point netting an 86. Notice that the least expensive of the abilities provides the greatest return and that the law of diminishing returns is at work.

What, in magic, moves us from 0 to 50 to 80 in our quest to entertain and amaze audiences? Anyone who has been in magic for awhile can answer this one with some adequacy. It all comes back to identifying that which enhances our performing abilities. The best magicians I have witnessed are first and foremost great performers and entertainers. Magic is merely the vehicle. So, while I am aquiver with temptation right now, I must remember that I am probably only somewhere between a 50 and a 70 at this point in my magic development. Not until I hit the 80 mark or thereabouts will I be ready to adequately take advantage of all of the possibilities of a tool like this. At this point it would be like putting a nail gun in my hands when all I really need is a hammer because all I know how to do is drive a nail and haven't learned how to build a house.

AmazingKeithy,

Interesting rationale. A wise professor also once said that 98.765% of all statistics are made up.

I will not argue that verbal communicative skills, written communicative skills, and an education increases one's chances to earn a decent living and contribute to society, however, I would not say they are 100% cause-effect related. I had a great grandfather who had the equivalency of a 10th grade education who became a US congressman. From what I am told of him, he was a people person, one of those guys who could charm every person in the room.

When it comes to magic, the top echelon magicians are those who both have the talent, skill, and tools to perform. Much of magic has to do with your personality, your ability to entertain people with or without props. Equally as much I would say are the effects you use. To me, it is simple, if you have extremely powerful high impact magic routines, they will be better than if you have mediocre ones.

Combine mind blowing effects with a charismatic performer, you have a lethal combination.

I don’t think your analogy of using a hammer instead of a nail gun works for me. If I was building a large deck, I sure as &*%% would want to use the nail gun over a hammer any day. (Even if I did not know how to use either, I'd rather learn the nail gun). I am of the opinion that better tools make life easier. I'd rather use Microsoft Word than a typewriter. I'd rather soldiers learn to use a machine gun then a musket with gun powder. I'd rather have a nice High Definition TV then an old black and white TV, I'd rather watch DVDs than video tapes, the list goes on.

Now let’s focus on the tools at hand, specifically the F/K holdout.

I can still remember the first time I saw Bob Fitch use it. It was after a Bob Kohler lecture, Fitch just started playing with some coins with a few guys watching him. I love coin magic so I started to watch him. Some of what Bob was doing I could follow from my familiarity with coin magic, then it happened...

He started to make a coin really vanish and I had NO clue what the heck was going on. Finally, he dumped a handful of coins into his right hand, jingled them around, then opened his hand and they were gone. My whole concept of coin magic was shattered. It screwed me up so bad that I had no idea what was happening. It was very surreal. It was one of the most magical nights that I ever experienced.

Months later I finally found out that Bob had used his holdout on me. Ever since I heard about it, I have followed news on its release closely, I know how powerful the thing is after being fried so bad by it.

I was honored to be one of the few people that finally got to see the holdout in all of its glory up in Bob Kohler’s room at LVMI. Even watching Bob setup, and seeing exactly what he was doing, the magic he was able to do with it is just eye candy. Bob was not in full gear entertainer mode, jazzing a crowd, he was simply doing a few bits of magic with a rubber ball and some sponge balls and a piece of rope. It was like watching trick photography. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the magicians who choose to use this system will have a very powerful tool in their hands. Even if your performing skills are not up to par, if you are able to learn and use this holdout, you will have magic ability that can destroy magicians and laypeople a like.

As to the actual construction… Thomas Wayne detailed every part and every attachment that will come standard with it. I got to personally hold most of the ends that come with it. The ability to make such items is an enviable skill to have. Thomas’ work is superb. I have never seen anything like this system. The whole thing fits neatly into a custom tailored leather case made by Joe Porper (who was also at LVMI). Every single piece of this system is quality. And the great thing is that the Bobs are putting everything one needs to learn how to use the holdout and routines on DVD. You can actually begin to apply the holdout into real work tipped by the guys who know the system the best.

This system carries a hefty price. But from what I have seen that can be done with it, and from actually seeing the final prototype, I can safely comment that I can see why it has the price tag it does. I wish selfishly it was more affordable, but quite honestly, I can’t argue with its price. Kudos to those who will get it and use it.

Even with all of the precautions Kohler is taking, is it really safe (from rip-offs and exposure)? Even if no one can replicate it, is there any way to keep them from making a cheap imitation? And what is to prevent FOX from exposing something similar to the F/K Holdout? It all worries me. I hate that there is no protection in magic. At least Kohler is trying.

I was also in the room at LVMI, when Bob Kohler and Thomas Wayne unveiled the Fitch-Kohler Holdout for a small group of magicians. The room definitely had the air of “covert ops.”


Dan Watkin's report is accurate. The rig’s high level of craftsmanship matches the high level of magic you can do with it.

That said, keep in mind that we were watching Bob Kohler, who has been using a holdout for a long time and is a top pro. At LVMI I also saw Bob Fitch do devastating coin magic with the holdout. He told me he has been using the device for 48 years.

So I can't quite go along with Dan's statement: "Even if your performing skills are not up to par, if you are able to learn and use this holdout, you will have magic ability that can destroy magicians and laypeople a like."

Using a holdout involves learning choreography and misdirection specific to this tool. The DVDs that come with the holdout will offer lots of basic instruction. But while a good performer will greatly improve his magic, a poor performer will simply use the holdout poorly.

A parallel: We’ve all seen both good and wretched magic done with the same TT; it all depends on the magician.

That said, on with the report: One of the coolest things Bob K did with the holdout during the demo session at LVMI came from the original "Holdout Miracles" book that Ed Mishell wrote about the Jack Miller holdout.

You double a rope, have a spectator cut it in half, and then simply toss the rope back to him: It is again in one piece! Ed Mishell believed this to be “the best rope trick ever devised.”

Bob K took the effect a step further by doing the restoration more slowly and smoothly, without tossing the rope. The rope seemed to melt back into one piece, and it truly looked like trick photography.

He also used the holdout for a quick demo with sponge balls. The holdout really cleaned up the vanishes, and it also delivered a ball when needed.

The cost of the holdout is daunting (especially when you add another $400. for Bob Fitch’s coin end) – but good magicians will do great magic with it.

Jerry

I first heard about the Fitch/Kohler Holdout last January while chatting with Bob Kohler in Vegas about production problems/concerns and magic in general. I am thrilled that it is soon to be released to others. The lease agreement is a great idea for protecting and documenting that the secret and apparatus are, in deed, trade secrets. FOX and the rip-off scum will have a hard time even seeing one to "copy". They would certainly have a difficult time finding someone to make a duplicate for them. This plan by Bob is an excellent beginning to protecting magic - especially on an international level. Much of the thievery of magic intellectual property is being done in Europe and Asia.

The price is high enough to keep it out of the hands of the merely curious and the bunglers associated with magic. Being fabricated by CNC will insure the required precision and availability of parts - if ever needed. I feel that the only ones who will complain about the lease agreement will be those who would never invest in one anyway. Such are the ilk who wait for cheap inferior knock-offs.

You can be certain that if Bob Kohler is putting it out, it will be first class and worth the price. The price may seem high; but this needs to be put into perspective. If you spend $5 each day at Starbucks and another $7 for lunch each day, you could put this money towards the holdout system and get it paid for sooner than you might imagine - in less than 6 months! You might need to make a few choices and cut back on your lifestyle for a few months; but you would gain a tool which would last you a lifetime and even pay for itself eventually. Besides, it is a tax depreciation item for the working magician. Looking at it this way, it really does not seem too expensive for what you get.

Reading over Bob's web page describing the holdout was very interesting. As a builder/developer, I'd like to see the rejected ideas and parts to get an overall idea of the thinking processes involved in its creation. Such things are interesting to me.

Anyway, the magic community should be thrilled that Fitch and Kohler are making this system available to others. Start "brown bagging" it right now!
Jim

Concerning the leasing agreement:

Have you ever stopped and thought about the computer software you buy at the store? You do not own that software you put on your computer no matter if it is Office XP or some sort of game, the software manufacturer retains the rights to it. But what is funny about it, is if you were to ask a dozen people if they thought they owned the software, all 12 would tell you yes. In fact all you are doing is leasing the software and the rights to use it from the company on a forever basis. You have no right to make anything but a back up copy for your software and you certainly have no right to give it to your friend or install it on a family members computer. This is what makes it possible for software companys to sue the pants off someone for pirating their software.

What Bob Kohler is doing with the Holdout is completely brilliant. Who would have thought that this was possible in the magic field? Honestly, I do not know why other magic trick, video, or book manufactures do not adopt this style of selling their product.

Bob Kohler is making a very powerful and professional item available to all sorts of magicians. This is the only way he can completely protect his interests in the product. There is nothing to worry about concerning the lease - it is your product to use as you feel fit as long as you don't abuse the agreement you signed. If you do abuse it or expose the secret, believe me, you will be sued.

Next time, read the licensing agreement that comes with your computer software and don't just check the "I accept" button, you might learn a lot about why Bob Kohler is doing it this way.